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Author Topic: Suggestions  (Read 9195 times)

25 May , 2006, 02:32:20 am
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Offline Remnkemi

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Suggestions
« on: 25 May , 2006, 02:32:20 am »
Here is what we should do to improve this site.

1. A Dictionary/Lexicon. Start a mini dictionary, preferably in a database format. Each person can add a word, if needed. Or they can request a translation, when someone gets the translation, add it to the dictionary. Each record or entry needs to have a. the root word. b. the tense. c. the article (masculine or feminine or plural). d. verb tense (if it is a verb). e. related words (spelling variants seen throughout Coptic). f. If it is a neologism (in other words, did someone create this word by combining words, since there is no Coptic equivalant).

2. Translation requests. As mentioned above, be diligent about answering request

3. Lessons. Maybe this isn't suitable for a forum, but it should be somewhere.

4. Articles on Coptic. I got plenty of those.

25 May , 2006, 07:26:18 am
Reply #1

Offline Admin

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: 25 May , 2006, 07:26:18 am »
Quote
3. Lessons. Maybe this isn't suitable for a forum, but it should be somewhere.
This one is already exist in Kami resources sections
http://kame.danacbe.com/index.php?topic=4.0
The only problem is that the website hosting this files (lessons) is currently down  :(
And this forum won't allow u to attach any file bigger than 2MB

Quote
4. Articles on Coptic. I got plenty of those.
if it is about the old Bohairic Pronounciation then u can add it to the first section
http://kame.danacbe.com/index.php?board=1.0
and I will add another section for the General articles (thank you for your note)

Quote
1. A Dictionary/Lexicon. Start a mini dictionary, preferably in a database format. Each person can add a word, if needed. Or they can request a translation, when someone gets the translation, add it to the dictionary. Each record or entry needs to have a. the root word. b. the tense. c. the article (masculine or feminine or plural). d. verb tense (if it is a verb). e. related words (spelling variants seen throughout Coptic). f. If it is a neologism (in other words, did someone create this word by combining words, since there is no Coptic equivalant).

2. Translation requests. As mentioned above, be diligent about answering request
This is a Prefect idea and I can add suggestion to it
u can have a smal pice of software in your computer that connect to the main database so that you can search/add/browse the dictionary without opening a single webpage [but still u can use the oridnary webbased way]
But the only problem is the limitation of this webhosting
it gives me only 2MB database quarter of it already used, but in the futhure [arshan ebnoody wosh ] I will move to  a paid host and begin to do this idea

thank you  and keep posting your good suggestions
and i am sorry for the current limitations of this forum  :'(
« Last Edit: 19 May , 2007, 04:27:04 am by Admin »

31 May , 2006, 12:31:28 am
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Offline Admin

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: 31 May , 2006, 12:31:28 am »
about the Coptic Dictionary I have began the project (thanks to your suggestion) http://kame.danacbe.com/index.php?topic=19.0
« Last Edit: 09 March , 2008, 04:35:53 am by Admin »

31 May , 2014, 07:15:13 am
Reply #3

Offline Anok

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: 31 May , 2014, 07:15:13 am »
I think there should be a project dedicated to "Publicity and Revitalization," for actively spreading Coptic and its correct teaching.

For example, Coptic needs to be made "cool" in Egypt in order to get Egyptians to want to learn it.... and the correct old Bohairic pronunciation needs to be made more widely known, if possible.

So I think that the project could focus on ways to expose Coptic language (separate from just Coptic Christianity) to the media in a positive way, and to convince the current teachers of Coptic of the value of accurate teaching. We could also think of creative ways to get more active members on this website / forum.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: 31 May , 2014, 07:17:47 am by Anok »
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14 January , 2015, 03:37:06 pm
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Offline Anaksunamun

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: 14 January , 2015, 03:37:06 pm »

I think there should be a project dedicated to "Publicity and Revitalization," for actively spreading Coptic and its correct teaching.

For example, Coptic needs to be made "cool" in Egypt in order to get Egyptians to want to learn it.... and the correct old Bohairic pronunciation needs to be made more widely known, if possible.

So I think that the project could focus on ways to expose Coptic language (separate from just Coptic Christianity) to the media in a positive way, and to convince the current teachers of Coptic of the value of accurate teaching. We could also think of creative ways to get more active members on this website / forum.

Thoughts?


Haha! I wish. There's a lot of problems with trying to change an entire language. First of, I've always been rather bothered by the fact that originally Arabic was forced upon the ancient Egyptians during the turn of the century, as Arabic is not the original language nor culture but everyone has converted to Islamic (sub)culture and a majority of people will now refuse to convert as Arabic is associated with religion.

It seems this will never change. But I do always suggest people to embrace their origins and embrace where they come from... I think Christianity has assisted in the negatively associated with ancient Egyptian religion, the Bible doesn't speak very highly of ancient Egypt with the paganism - this might scare a lot of devout religious people because they will feel they are betraying. Though of course this is speculation and just my opinion.
Many cultures started out pagan and ended up with a more modern society, for example Greeks, Romans, Chinese...

I personally believe the original way of Egyptian culture, language and way of life was absolutely beautiful and it's quite sad that it wasn't developed properly the way Arabic, or the romance languagelanguages evolved into what it is today. There's only remnants of the ancient world hidden in Egyptian Arabic, hopefully one day there will be a new birth but I personally don't see that ever happening.


14 January , 2015, 04:05:25 pm
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Offline Anok

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: 14 January , 2015, 04:05:25 pm »
I completely agree with most of what you have said. I'm even fond of the old Egyptian religious thought, to be honest, which shouldn't bother people as much as it does because it laid some of the foundation of Abrahamic religions. Sebayt are in the Torah / Old Testament
Jesus reportedly grew up in Egypt. Heaven and Hell themselves may have been derived from the Egyptian concepts. What is everyone's problem? Ignorance of history and of the succession of thoughts and faiths.

But even so, Coptic is a language. It shouldn't need justification to exist. It is simply a precious thing to humanity.

If there is a way to revive  Coptic, its image will need to be reworked somewhat, certainly. If nothing else, I think it deserves to be a thing of national pride and not a religious safekeeping - although I am extremely grateful that the Church has preserved the language and, in the end, I am not Egyptian, so what do I know?
« Last Edit: 14 January , 2015, 04:11:05 pm by Anok »
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14 January , 2015, 04:19:07 pm
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Offline Anok

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: 14 January , 2015, 04:19:07 pm »
Anyways, new suggestion. Duolingo is awesome and could greatly remedy the difficulty of learning Coptic. New languages are developed by their respective communities (us)  and we would need to settle on a single dialect or a reasonable blend (I still endorse Bohairic supplemented with primarily Sahidic and dipping into others for unique words that can reduce Greek borrowing), but it would be fantastic and far more effective than our other projects, honestly.

The biggest difficulty would be obtaining audio true to the correct pronunciation. On the other hand, no other tool has more potential to reverse the damage done by the Greek pronunciation. Or to spread the language, in general.

However we also need either a)  someone who is practically fluent to apply, or b) to write a very convincing letter to the Duolingo people. That said, I don't understand why we would be rejected. One of the courses you can apply to moderate is for learning Klingon.
« Last Edit: 14 January , 2015, 04:44:10 pm by Anok »
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15 January , 2015, 12:51:08 am
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Offline Anaksunamun

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: 15 January , 2015, 12:51:08 am »
Anyways, new suggestion. Duolingo is awesome and could greatly remedy the difficulty of learning Coptic. New languages are developed by their respective communities (us)  and we would need to settle on a single dialect or a art  blend (I still endorse Bohairic supplemented with primarily Sahidic and dipping into others for unique words that can reduce Greek borrowing), but it would be fantastic and far more effective than our other projects, honestly.

The biggest difficulty would be obtaining audio true to the correct pronunciation. On the other hand, no other tool has more potential to reverse the damage done by the Greek pronunciation. Or to spread the language, in general.

However we also need either a)  someone who is practically fluent to apply, or b) to write a very convincing letter to the Duolingo people. That said, I don't understand why we would be rejected. One of the courses you can apply to moderate is for learning Klingon.

Yes I totally agree!!
There's a few difficulties with Coptic grammar which aren't explained well. This has made it difficult to find stable solutions -
For example, the verb forms have no concise interpretation (absolute, construct and pronomial are underlying forms reducing vowel quality when implemented as additions to words) and this part took me an eternity to digest because there wasn't a lesson truly describing verbs properly. Qualitative forms are extremely irregular.

Pronunciation is another problem.
In my opinion there are three main methods of pronunciation:
Greco-Coptic (Greco-Bohairic)
Old Bohairic - probably based upon Koine Greek and old Arabic
The original pronunciation - uninfluenced by Greek orthography (probably Sahidic)

Dialects shouldn't pose too much of a problem as the two main dialects are Sahidic and Bohairic, with Bohairic being used in liturgical Copt churches. The other dialects are wonderful to compare to come up with what the vowels may have been in the hieroglyphic era. From my understanding, there are no "native" speakers of Coptic, so someone with an intense knowledge of Coptic who understands the quality of pronunciation would suit best for doing the audio and someone who speaks well and has a nice voice (Male or female).

Thought I'd add some suggestions for you added to your wonderful words :)

15 January , 2015, 01:30:20 am
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Offline Anok

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: 15 January , 2015, 01:30:20 am »
I keep hearing that there are ~300 first-language speakers, but I can't find much evidence for that. There are a few people who only spoke to their kids in Coptic and therefore there are a few families who definitely speak it fluently, but I have no idea how to get in touch with those people, and I have no idea what their pronunciation is like. Probably Greco-Bohairic, if the people in this video are any testament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTjsZJNDLJw

Still, someone like that would be immensely helpful for grammar, etc.
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15 January , 2015, 11:01:38 pm
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Offline Anaksunamun

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: 15 January , 2015, 11:01:38 pm »
I keep hearing that there are ~300 first-language speakers, but I can't find much evidence for that. There are a few people who only spoke to their kids in Coptic and therefore there are a few families who definitely speak it fluently, but I have no idea how to get in touch with those people, and I have no idea what their pronunciation is like. Probably Greco-Bohairic, if the people in this video are any testament: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTjsZJNDLJw

Still, someone like that would be immensely helpful for grammar, etc.

I read somewhere too that there were some people who may have spoken Coptic through passing  of their family. The sources are far and in between and I haven't found any more information on it.
Some of the aspects of pronunciation, phrases and Grammar do get passed from generation to generation, which is why, when I try to reconstruct middle Egyptian I not only use Coptic but  also look  at colloquial Egyptian Arabic. I understand there's a genetic indirect relationship there, and I say this because -

I'm Puerto Rican, and I grew up with Spanish, but if you know a little bit of the history of Puerto  Rico, originally it was inhabited by the Taíno Indians whom the Spaniards (along with European diseases) killed off the people. But within the dialect of Puerto Rico, sounds, words and phrases got passed on through the Indians into the Spanish which is spoken on the island and indirectly, you're able to reconstruct some aspects of the Taíno language which is actually another one of my projects other than ancient Egyptian.

There are groups on the island and off who are trying to preserve the original mother tongue of the Taíno language.

The same process can be done with Egyptian.

Trying to get ahold of people from the countryside, away from the larger cities whose generation has stayed within Egypt is where you'll find some genuine answers, in my opinion. I'm surprised a group of people other than the Coptic cchurch haven't tried to preserve the original language.
« Last Edit: 15 January , 2015, 11:08:14 pm by Anaksunamun »

16 January , 2015, 04:28:08 am
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Offline ophadece

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: 16 January , 2015, 04:28:08 am »
Because the Egyptians are too lazy, hold no value for their roots and even if they try they are vigorously met with the oppression and suppression from powers that be to discourage them.. some Coptologists do but again only met with difficulties and never carry on..
oujai khan ebshois
ari`hmot `slyl e;byten anon pi`cnau

16 January , 2015, 08:19:46 am
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Offline Anok

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: 16 January , 2015, 08:19:46 am »
Ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ, Ophadece,

Can you tell us more about why Egyptians feel this way, which powers are suppressing Coptic roots and (more importantly) why you believe they are doing this suppression?

Also, are you Egyptian? If so, why do you value your roots? I would like to hear from anyone else who reads this their reasons for appreciating this language or original Egyptian culture, in any way.

I would gladly help come up with creative solutions to Egypt's apparent image problem, but I know that I need to understand what is going on in the culture much more deeply in order to do so.

Anaksunamun, have you seen this?

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« Last Edit: 16 January , 2015, 08:25:06 am by Anok »
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17 January , 2015, 04:44:07 am
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Offline Anaksunamun

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: 17 January , 2015, 04:44:07 am »
Ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ, Ophadece,

Can you tell us more about why Egyptians feel this way, which powers are suppressing Coptic roots and (more importantly) why you believe they are doing this suppression?

Also, are you Egyptian? If so, why do you value your roots? I would like to hear from anyone else who reads this their reasons for appreciating this language or original Egyptian culture, in any way.

I would gladly help come up with creative solutions to Egypt's apparent image problem, but I know that I need to understand what is going on in the culture much more deeply in order to do so.

Anaksunamun, have you seen this?

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I will also be more glad to help too with anything :)
And no I have not seen this! Thank you for the link. I have some other files but not this one. So very interesting to read things like this.
I don't understand the image problem in Egypt either. Only thing I can think of would be that Islam is directly connected to the Arabic language (in example the Qaran), in the middle east this is the religion of choice and if a group of people try to restore a different mentality than it would be against their faith and they would feel the need to stop it. This is just my assumption but it would be nice to know what true Egyptians feel.

18 January , 2015, 03:01:37 am
Reply #13

Offline ophadece

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: 18 January , 2015, 03:01:37 am »
Dear Anok and Anaksunamun,
Anaksunamun hit the nail on the head. I am an Egyptian but I don't live in Egypt anymore.. I can tell you that when I am talking about the powers suppressing Copts and the use of the Coptic language I mean no environment is created for such opportunities to arise and the enthusiasts are discouraged, including the  non-Christian Coptologists. In the eras of the past Christians were tortured for using the Coptic language. Arabic became the official language and people could not speak any other language.. I hope I am clear..
oujai khan ebshois
ari`hmot `slyl e;byten anon pi`cnau

20 January , 2015, 02:04:44 am
Reply #14

Offline Anok

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Re: Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: 20 January , 2015, 02:04:44 am »
You are clear.

I wonder what you think about the idea of a kind of neo-Pharaonism or specifically Egyptian identity? Do you think that this could realistically help to 1) support the appreciation of Egyptian roots and possibly even 2) help bridge sectarian differences by establishing a greater sense of Egyptian identity?

This article seems like a fair assessment of the idea, what do you think?

Do you think that attitudes such as this may become more popular in time?

Or do you think that this is utterly the wrong way to go about things?
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