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Author Topic: Vowels  (Read 5239 times)

04 August , 2008, 03:07:52 pm
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Offline Davide

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Vowels
« on: 04 August , 2008, 03:07:52 pm »
Dear friends,
I am an Italian very interested in Afro-Asiatic languages and cultures, and am trying to understand the old Bohairic pronunciation of Coptic as much as possible. For that reason, I am taking the liberty to ask you some questions, hoping not to bother you too much...
First, I would like to ask you whether there is any opposition between long and shorts vowels in old Bohairic pronunciation Coptic. It seems to me to understand from some Arabic transliterations that there is not such an opposition, and that vowels tend to be all long if slowly pronounced and all short except for the stressed ones if they are in open syllables (the Egyptian Arabic pattern). Am I right?
I have read the basics of old Bohairic pronunciation here: http://www.geocities.com/remenkimi/pronounciation.html and listened to the two readings here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bohairic&search_type=&aq=f
Are there any rules helping us in understanding the following points?
1. When is Ⲁ pronounced like the "a" of "at"? I do not remember to have heard it ever pronounced like that, but only as in "far", as an Arabic emphatic /a:/, as in طائرة or in Cairene Arabic ماء... In Arabic transliteration I have seen emphatic consonants used where Coptic has an Ⲁ...
2. When is Ⲃ pronounced like a "b"?
3. I think Ⲏ is pronounced like "ee" only in Greek borrowings: am I right?
4. Is Ⲧ ever pronounced like a "t"?
5. When is Ⲫ pronounced like a "b" and when is it an "f" sound?
6. When is Ϭ pronounced as a "gsh" sound?
7. I think Ⲭ is pronounced like "sh" or like "خ" in Greek borrowings only (otherwise, like "k"). When is it "sh" and when is it "خ"? Is it "sh" in front of Ⲉ, Ⲏ, Ⲓ and Ⲩ as when Greek realizes it as the "ch" of German "ich" (IPA [ç])?
Hoping I am not bothering you too much I thank you with all my heart.
مع السلامة
Davide

04 August , 2008, 06:20:26 pm
Reply #1

Offline Admin

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Re: Vowels
« Reply #1 on: 04 August , 2008, 06:20:26 pm »
Hello David, and welcome to our forum
about the short vowels,
we have 3 vowels to represent the letter a
another 3 to represent the letter o
and only two to represent the letter i

Ⲁ is pronounced as in "Far" as you said, that is the correct pronunciation of the letter
some people pronounce it as in "at" because it is easier to pronounce that way

Ⲉ is a very short a, as in Arabic فن or  دم  or عم or ذم
it is not written in arabic, but replaced with a sign called "fat ha" فتحه

Ⲏ is usually pronounced long a as in "at" but sometimes it is pronounced long Y

u didn't ask about the o vowels not the i vowels so I will skip them for now

Ⲃ is called Wida, or Bida and can be pronounced as W or B
usually it is pronounced W when followed by another vowel, B otherwise

Ⲏ is pronounced as long a , but there is many words that has Ⲏ pronounced deep Y
a good prove for why Ⲏ is pronounced a is a word like that one
Ⲡⲏⲓ
this means "The House" pronounced "Bay"
if Ⲏ was long Y then I would have pronounced it "Byyi" *does it make sense?*

Ⲧ is called "Daw" and usually pronounced D unless it came at the end of the word, in this case it will be pronounced "T"

Ⲑ this is the letter that is pronounced "T" all of the time
there is not "th" in the Coptic language
notice how all Egyptian says "Catolic" instead of "Catholic"
and "Ortodox" instead of "Orthozox"

Ⲫ as you said b or f
it don't know its rule, in our Coptic books they put a dot under this letter when it is pronounced b
but I am sure there is a rule, I just didn't pay attention to it yet

Ϭ should be always pronounced that way, however we (as a community) are not sure if it was really pronounced gsh or something near it.
we always pronounce it sh

Ⲭ is always "k" (in Coptic words)

Note that, all of what I have wrote above apply ONLY on the words of Coptic Origin
Words of Greek Origin is a bit different

you can watch the following video, might help
but as I told u sometimes they pronounce Ⲁ as in "at",plz ignore that Ⲁ is always as in "Far"
other than that the video is cool, and has very correct pronunciation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGIa4steqVw
« Last Edit: 04 August , 2008, 06:27:09 pm by Admin »

05 August , 2008, 12:10:36 am
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Offline Davide

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Re: Vowels
« Reply #2 on: 05 August , 2008, 12:10:36 am »
Dear friend,
thank you very much for your answer! Very clear!!! :)
So, is Ⲁ always a long vowel, like in Cairene Arabic ماء ('water')?
As to Ⲟ, is it short, similar to the dammah of أم ('mother')?
And is Ⲱ always long?
And what about Ⲓ? ;)
Hoping for your help, I thank you again very much!
ألله يبارك فيك
Davide

05 August , 2008, 12:25:24 am
Reply #3

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Re: Vowels
« Reply #3 on: 05 August , 2008, 12:25:24 am »
I don't know what is Cairene Arabic, But I know it is like Far, Jar, War
Yes, Ⲟ is pronounced as u said
Ⲱ is pronounced as in "for", "more"
there is also the ⲟⲩ that is pronounced as a long o as in "loose"
Ⲓ is a short i, like "kasra" in Arabic, for example "من" but sometimes pronounced like English I as in "Bin"

You don't really Have to write in Arabic,
if you r doing that to flatter me you would better thank me in Coptic instead :D
ⲪϮ ⲉϥⲉⲥⲙⲟⲩ ⲉⲣⲟⲕ

20 August , 2008, 12:41:44 am
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Offline Davide

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Re: Vowels
« Reply #4 on: 20 August , 2008, 12:41:44 am »
Dear friend, I thank you so much for your help!
As to Ϯ, I think its vowel is short: right?
Thank you very much again!!!!

20 August , 2008, 12:48:37 am
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Offline Admin

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Re: Vowels
« Reply #5 on: 20 August , 2008, 12:48:37 am »
Ϯ  = Ⲧ + Ⲓ (ⲧⲓ)

24 August , 2008, 07:59:27 pm
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Offline Davide

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Re: Vowels
« Reply #6 on: 24 August , 2008, 07:59:27 pm »
Thank you very much, my friend!
I sadly cannot thank you in Coptic... yet.

25 August , 2008, 03:28:46 pm
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Offline Admin

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Re: Vowels
« Reply #7 on: 25 August , 2008, 03:28:46 pm »
You could say
Ϯ ϣⲉⲡϩⲙⲟⲧ ˋⲛⲧⲟⲧⲕ
Ϯ  de -> I
ϣⲉⲡ shab -> accept/receive
ϩⲙⲟⲧ -> Bless
ˋⲛ -> of
ⲧⲟⲧⲕ -> your hand
This how you way Thank you in the official way, or you can simply say ⲙⲓⲟⲕ
When you learn Coptic don't forget to come back here and write some articles for us :)

25 September , 2008, 05:05:27 pm
Reply #8

Offline georgesedhom

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Re: Vowels
« Reply #8 on: 25 September , 2008, 05:05:27 pm »
anok ouremnkhmi pe