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Author Topic: What to add next to each word in the index?  (Read 8274 times)

29 June , 2009, 12:18:03 pm
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What to add next to each word in the index?
« on: 29 June , 2009, 12:18:03 pm »
currently, in the index page
http://danacbe.com/Wiki/index.php/Index:Coptic/%E2%B2%81#.E2.B2.81
we add the kind of each word (verb,noun,...) next to each word
for example "ⲁⲃⲱ Noun"
this decision was taken based on dictionary.com
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/drink?r=75

please note that doing that means that a word like Ⲥⲁϫⲓ
will have two independent entries like that
Ⲥⲁϫⲓ Noun
Ⲥⲁϫⲓ  Verb

so what do you think guys, is it fine
or do you have a better suggestion

30 June , 2009, 01:19:43 pm
Reply #1

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #1 on: 30 June , 2009, 01:19:43 pm »
currently a word like ⲁⲓⲁⲓ has nothing beside it
and the page itself contains both the verb and the noun
http://danacbe.com/Wiki/index.php/%E2%B2%81%E2%B2%93%E2%B2%81%E2%B2%93
what do you think, should we split it into two pages?
or should just add the words without anything beside them and forget the whole thing?
please guys give me your opinions

30 June , 2009, 08:14:09 pm
Reply #2

Offline mariag

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #2 on: 30 June , 2009, 08:14:09 pm »
I actually feel it would be fine to have both (all?) word kinds that apply to a word next to it, for example:
Ⲥⲁϫⲓ Noun, Verb

30 June , 2009, 08:58:18 pm
Reply #3

Offline Remnkemi

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #3 on: 30 June , 2009, 08:58:18 pm »
Here's the format I think you should include. I think we should start with the ideal and tone it down to something we can practically do.

1. Dialectal Variance: Same word in Bohairic, Sahidic, Fayummic, Akmimic, etc. We may need an article discussing new singla (how Coptologist now list all the dialects. There's about 20 dialects).
2. Tense: Start with Noun, then adjective, then verb, then other.
2a. If noun, simply state meaning and a note if it is a Greek loan word. For example, ma;ytyc - GL (Greek loan word) pupil, disciple If verb, need 4 forms: infinitive, prominal, preprominal, and qualitative. For example, mici Inf. mec- or mac- Pro. mac= PPro. moci Q. If adjectives, pronouns, preposition or other: simply list word and meaning.

2b. Idioms: Certain nouns, and verbs have additional meaning if you add a preposition. For example, ma;oui - poison. refhima;oui - thrower of poison. St. Shenouda Archimandrite Coptic Society's dictionary and Fr. Kyrillos Makar's dictionary are good references. The same is true for Claudias Labib's dictionary in Arabic. If it is a verb, we'll have to list all, even if it becomes a noun. For example, ma] - hit the mark. We need to also list ]ma] - V. agree, enjoy, attain. ]ma] - N. pleasure. ref]ma] - N. masc. Obedient person. at]ma] - Adj. Disagreeing. metat]ma] - N. fem. unacceptableness.

2c. Example sentences. I think this should be optional. Crum included it for every word but he also included many, many examples from different manuscripts. It would take decades to include this into Coptionary. If you do include an example, include a translation. I've noticed some words currently in Coptionary have examples from the Bible. It would be nice to include the entire reference in English too.

3. Linked words. Think of this as a misspelled section. However, there is no such thing as misspelled. This section is more for Bohairic variances. For example, mmeine vs. mmyini. However, I don't like the title Bohairic variances because the variant form can be the Sahidic variant. But some words have multiple variances, that are more than dialectal variances.

4. For verbs and prepositions, I think we should have a conjugation table. For example
nem Then list all the conjugations in 3 columns: 1 for person, 1 for Coptic text, 1 for English meaning. So the first row would be: 1st pers sg. nemyi. with me. The next row would be 2nd per sg. font=CS Avva Shenouda]nemyaf[/font]. with you. Etc. This is easy for prepositions. It is a lot harder for verbs.  Given Coptic has 40+ verb tenses (about 15 are used often), it makes sense for us to list the verb tenses we should include. We also have to standardize the name of each tense. I'll work on this.

Of course, this is a lot of work. It would take years to complete, especially if we tabulate conjugations. However, we can start with popular words and increase from there. By inputing popular words first, we can basically form a dictionary/lexicon that will allow people to find most words in our church services, especially the psalmody. Then we can move on to more specialized word lists.

Any thoughts. Thanks.
George

01 July , 2009, 12:06:38 am
Reply #4

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #4 on: 01 July , 2009, 12:06:38 am »
George, you are talking about the "Page" itself that explains the meaning of the word and everything about it
what I was talking about here is what to set in front of each word in the index
http://danacbe.com/Wiki/index.php/Index:Coptic/%E2%B2%81#.E2.B2.81
for example "ⲁ letter"
Maria's idea is great
please let me know your opinion about it

But what you have just said is also important
can you please make an entry for the word "ⲥϧⲁⲓ"
so that we can use it as an example of how do you want the page looks like
and that also will clarify more what you have just said

01 July , 2009, 12:14:07 am
Reply #5

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #5 on: 01 July , 2009, 12:14:07 am »
but please before you make your page
I noticed that you used ASCII font
please note that we use the Copic Unicode font in the dictionary
This article contains everything you need to know about Unicode + how to convert from your current font to Unicode
http://kame.danacbe.com/index.php/topic,217.msg1230.html#msg1230

09 July , 2009, 01:40:08 pm
Reply #6

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #6 on: 09 July , 2009, 01:40:08 pm »
Another thought about what to add next to each word
I think that we should add the meaning next to each word instead
because for example ϣⲁⲓ could mean either festival or nose
both are nouns, so if I placed them in the index they will be like that
ϣⲁⲓ Noun
ϣⲁⲓ Noun
While it will be more appropriate to place them like that
ϣⲁⲓ Festival
ϣⲁⲓ Nose

09 July , 2009, 08:36:39 pm
Reply #7

Offline mariag

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #7 on: 09 July , 2009, 08:36:39 pm »
I thought about that.. and it would be useful in looking up via index but... would they lead to one wiki page?

i feel that most of the access would actually be done through the search function (at least that's how i access wikipedia and online dictionaries).. so we have to be cognizant of that and make it easy (having different pages with different meanings means the person looking up a word would get multiple results and have to choose from them?)
« Last Edit: 09 July , 2009, 08:40:52 pm by mariag »

11 July , 2009, 12:09:23 am
Reply #8

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #8 on: 11 July , 2009, 12:09:23 am »
Yea they will get multiple results,
But this will be very helpful to them
lets say that a person was searching for the word ϣⲁⲓ
he will get multiple results like
ϣⲁⲓ festival
ϣⲁⲓ nose
ϣⲁⲓ sunshine
then this person think, which word suites the context more
once he found it,he might not even feel the need to open any of the result (cause he already knew the meaning)
or he could open the one he wants for more details

regarding your question about whether there will be multiple entries or one same entry
again I think that will be left to "crum" to decide
but basically if the meaning are very near to each others like ⲁⲓⲁⲓ they will have the same entry
if the meaning varies much like in the case of ϣⲁⲓ each word will have its own entry
but in all cases the final call will be left to crum to decide
Tell me what do you think
« Last Edit: 11 July , 2009, 12:42:02 am by Admin »

14 July , 2009, 02:11:58 am
Reply #9

Offline mariag

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #9 on: 14 July , 2009, 02:11:58 am »
so by "search", i actually meant the search function on the left side... which might get confused by multiple entries or just route everything to one of them.. how does that work?

14 July , 2009, 12:23:42 pm
Reply #10

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #10 on: 14 July , 2009, 12:23:42 pm »
lets say I am trying to search for the word ϣⲁⲓ
I write this word in the book, when I click search
I get the following result
http://danacbe.com/Wiki/index.php/Special:Search?search=%CF%A3%E2%B2%81%E2%B2%93&go=Go
It shows me all the ϣⲁⲓ words with its meaning in front of it

16 July , 2009, 03:21:33 am
Reply #11

Offline mariag

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #11 on: 16 July , 2009, 03:21:33 am »
i don't know.. i feel that might be confusing.. imagine looking up a word then getting a bunch of results- at that point you're confused why you're getting multiple pages for one simple word.. or you might even not realize and just pick one randomly..
on second thought.. i guess vastly different words could have ended up looking the same in one dialect or another.. and it's fair to take crum's discretion for this :/

16 July , 2009, 01:47:04 pm
Reply #12

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #12 on: 16 July , 2009, 01:47:04 pm »
Well,
I could fix the confusion
try to search again for the word ϣⲁⲓ
it should now give you a "disambiguation" page
is that better? or do you have something better in you mind?

17 July , 2009, 12:56:18 am
Reply #13

Offline mariag

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Re: What to add next to each word in the index?
« Reply #13 on: 17 July , 2009, 12:56:18 am »
i think that is quite helpful  :D yay!