Advanced Search

Author Topic: Lord's Prayer  (Read 13864 times)

18 July , 2009, 11:09:25 pm
Read 13864 times

Offline Andrew

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 22
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 0

Lord's Prayer
« on: 18 July , 2009, 11:09:25 pm »
Hi Everyone:

I'm a new member.  Very glad to find this forum.

I would like to obtain a word-for-word translation of the Coptic Lord's Prayer. 

After downloading several Coptic fonts and unicode, I was able to read Coptic online.  I have the Lord's Prayer in Coptic but the words do not correspond to the English.  I've spent hours reading Coptic grammer but there are still many words in the Lord's Prayer that I can't translate.

I appreciate very much your help. 

God bless you,

Andrew

21 July , 2009, 12:32:41 pm
Reply #1

Offline Admin

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 1095
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 2

    • Ⲧⲉⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ
Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #1 on: 21 July , 2009, 12:32:41 pm »
ⲡⲉⲛ-ⲓⲱⲧ ⲉⲧ-ϧⲉⲛ ⲛⲓ-ⲫⲏⲟⲩⲓ
our-father whose-in the-heavens
ⲙⲁⲣⲉ-ϥ-ⲧⲟⲩⲃⲟ ⲛ̀ϫⲉ ⲡⲉⲕ-ⲣⲁⲛ
may-he hallowed (ⲛ̀ϫⲉ) your-Name (may he be hallowed [and he refers to your name])
ⲙⲁⲣⲉ-ⲥ ⲓ̀ ⲛ̀ϫⲉ ⲧⲉⲕ-ⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲣⲟ
may-she come (ⲛ̀ϫⲉ) your-kingdom (may she come [and she refers to your kingdom])
ⲡⲉⲧ-ⲉϩⲛⲁ-ⲕ ⲙⲁⲣⲉ-ϥ-ϣⲱⲡⲓ
what-please-you may-he-become
ⲙⲫⲣⲏϯ ϧⲉⲛ ⲧ̀-ⲫⲉ ⲛⲉⲙ ϩⲓϫⲉⲛ ⲡⲓ-ⲕⲁϩⲓ
like in the-heaven also on the-land
ⲡⲉⲛ-ⲱⲓⲕ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉ ⲣⲁⲥϯ ⲙⲏⲓ-ϥ ⲛⲁ-ⲛ ⲙ̀ⲫⲟⲟⲩ
our-bread of tomorrow give-him to-us today
ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲭⲁ ⲛⲏ-ⲉⲧ-ⲉⲣⲟ-ⲛ ⲛⲁ-ⲛ ⲉ̀ⲃⲟⲗ
and put those-which-on-us for-us away (put what we owe away for us)
[if you owe something to somebody, they say this thing is "on you"
and putting what is on you away means forgiving you]
ⲙ̀ⲫ̀ⲣⲏϯ ϩⲱⲛ ⲛ̀ⲧⲉⲛ-ⲭⲱ ⲉ̀ⲃⲟⲗ ⲛ̀-ⲛⲏ-ⲉⲧⲉ ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲛ̀ⲧⲁⲛ ⲉⲣ-ⲱⲟⲩ
like also-we (we also) we-put away those-which have we (we have) on-them
ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲙ̀ⲡⲉⲣ-ⲉⲛ-ⲧⲉⲛ ⲉϧⲟⲩⲛ ⲉ̀-ⲡⲓ-ⲣⲁⲥⲙⲟⲥ
and don't-bring-us inside to-the-temptation
ⲁⲗⲗⲁ ⲛⲁϩⲙ-ⲉⲛ ⲉⲃⲟⲗϩⲁ ⲡⲓ-ⲡⲉⲧϩⲱⲟⲩ
but save-us from the-evil
ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ-ⲭ̅ⲥ̅ Ⲓⲏ̅ⲥ̅ Ⲡⲉⲛ-ⲟ̅ⲥ̅.
with the Christ Jesus our-lord

21 July , 2009, 12:34:58 pm
Reply #2

Offline Admin

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 1095
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 2

    • Ⲧⲉⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ
Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #2 on: 21 July , 2009, 12:34:58 pm »
I've tried to make it literal as much as I can
but still you can't understand it without knowing some Coptic grammar
Tell me if something is unclear, to try to clarify it more
welcome Andrew to our forum

23 July , 2009, 04:24:28 am
Reply #3

Offline Andrew

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 22
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 0

Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #3 on: 23 July , 2009, 04:24:28 am »
Thank you very much for the translation.  You have no idea how much I appreciate your effort.   

Memorizing this fundamental prayer in Coptic makes me feel closer to the saints who prayed it over the ages.  But my brain would not allow me to memorize words that I could not understand.   :)

I'll study your translation and post any other questions.

God bless you,

Andrew

23 July , 2009, 10:29:33 pm
Reply #4

Offline Admin

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 1095
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 2

    • Ⲧⲉⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ
Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #4 on: 23 July , 2009, 10:29:33 pm »
If you want to say it as the saints used to say it, I assume you are pronouncing it in the old pronunciation ?
But anyway If you want really to "feel" the words, u need to learn the language itself
not just a translation like this

24 July , 2009, 05:56:06 am
Reply #5

Offline Andrew

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 22
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 0

Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #5 on: 24 July , 2009, 05:56:06 am »
Learning a language is a difficult task.  I don't want to get bogged down in the grammer that I cannot do anything else.  This happened when I tried to learn French.  I'd rather be able to read only without being able to write a composition.  Is there a website that can help me get started?

As for the old pronunciation of the Bohairic dialect, I believe there must have been a multitude of local accents, just as there are for all living languages.  I listened to a hymn from a link in this forum.  The pronunciation replaced the sound of th with t, t with d, p with b, e with a, and j with g.  It's hard for me to imagine that that is how educated people pronounced the Coptic language, otherwise many letters would have been unnecessary and would have been eliminated. 

Is it possible that the accent that survived as Old Bohairic is merely equivalent of Cockney English, while the correct pronunciation did not survive?   

Blessings,

Andrew




24 July , 2009, 01:46:16 pm
Reply #6

Offline Admin

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 1095
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 2

    • Ⲧⲉⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ
Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #6 on: 24 July , 2009, 01:46:16 pm »
If you don't mind, I have a question out of topic I want to ask before I can reply
Are you Egyptian? Do you speak Arabic in the Egyptian accent?

25 July , 2009, 04:37:20 am
Reply #7

Offline Andrew

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 22
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 0

Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #7 on: 25 July , 2009, 04:37:20 am »
Yes, I'm from Egypt and I speak the Bohairic Arabic dialect (usually called Egyptian Arabic) with a Cairene accent. 

Bohairic Arabic, if I may use this term, is spoken with a continuum of regional accents.  “There is a linguistic shift from the eastern to the western parts of the delta, and the dialects spoken from Gizah to el Minya are further grouped into a Middle Egypt cluster.”  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Arabic 

The situation is similar with English spoken in different regions.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialects_of_the_English_language

I suspect that Bohairic Coptic was also spoken with many different accents, of which only one survived in el Minya, and only God knows how much this one changed over the centuries.  What’s your take on this?

God bless you,

Andrew
« Last Edit: 25 July , 2009, 07:55:01 am by Andrew »

25 July , 2009, 02:50:50 pm
Reply #8

Offline Admin

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 1095
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 2

    • Ⲧⲉⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ
Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #8 on: 25 July , 2009, 02:50:50 pm »
So, Since you know Egyptian dialect
you should have probably noticed that the Egyptians never say pronounce letter "th" instead they pronounce it "t" as in
te3ban instead of tho3ban "snake"
taman instead of thaman "price"
even in english classes many people fail to pronounce the "th" and pronounce it "s" instead

so when somebody come and tell you that the Coptic language has the letter "th" you can reset assured that they are not correct
same thing for the letter "V", this letter NEVER existed in our language

But generally speaking, I agree with you that the different Coptic Dialects had different accents
we can notice that from the different spellings of some words
But I don't know what you mean by "one survived in el Minya"

26 July , 2009, 02:32:44 am
Reply #9

Offline Andrew

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 22
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 0

Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #9 on: 26 July , 2009, 02:32:44 am »
I agree.  Cairenes do not usually pronounce the letters "th," "dh," or "v." 

The foremost Coptic scholar, Dr. Emil Maher (Father Shenouda), on the website of the Coptic church in Rochester, New York writes that those sounds never existed in Hieroglyphic.  http://stshenouda.rochcopts.org/BohairicPronunciation.php

But why have 2 letters, v and f that are pronounced like “f”? 

Father Dr. Maher does not mention the origin of the pronunciation of p like “b”, t like “d”, or j like “g”.  I will not stress the pronunciation of e like “a”, in the recording that I listened to, since in many languages the correct pronunciation of vowels is only in the eyes of the beholder.

I’m quite interested in learning the “old” Bohairic pronunciation.  It is the best “guess” arrived at by modern scholarship, even though I’m not absolutely sure of its accuracy.  But I’m really ignorant about the matter  :).  Can you suggest a recording of the Lord’s Prayer in “old” Bohairic?
 
A friend of mine mentioned that a couple of churches in el Minya hire only pastors and deacons from local families that kept the old Bohairic pronunciation in their tradition.  This is what I meant by writing that a certain accent “survived in el Minya.”  I would like you to confirm this for me, please.  Thank you for all the help. 

God bless you,

Andrew




26 July , 2009, 12:09:33 pm
Reply #10

Offline Admin

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 1095
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 2

    • Ⲧⲉⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ
Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #10 on: 26 July , 2009, 12:09:33 pm »
Unfortunately, I can't confirm this
but if you can give us any clue about where exactly in Minya  those people live, Let me know and we could go there and check
As far as I know there is only some few churches that prays in Old Bohairic, those churches are in village called Zineia near Luxur

Regarding to the Lord's prayer, you can find it here in OB
http://kame.danacbe.com/index.php/topic,4.msg13.html#msg13

26 July , 2009, 05:24:45 pm
Reply #11

Offline Andrew

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 22
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 0

Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #11 on: 26 July , 2009, 05:24:45 pm »
Thank you very much for the internet link, it lead me to a thread of messages from 2006 containing many other links with a wealth of information.

I'll ask my friend about the churches that pray in old Bohairic but it seems quite likely that they are the same ones you mentioned near Luxur.  Wouldn't you expect these to pray in Sahidic, though?  Are we confusing Sahidic as "old" Bohairic?

Every time I tried to include Coptic letters in my messages, they changed to Latin letters in the posts.  I downloaded the arial coptic and am able to see your messages in Coptic.  How can I show Coptic letters in my messages?

God bless you,

Andrew


26 July , 2009, 06:29:36 pm
Reply #12

Offline Admin

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 1095
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 2

    • Ⲧⲉⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ
Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #12 on: 26 July , 2009, 06:29:36 pm »
Regarding Sahidic
I was expecting the same thing, But the story says that those people were originally Arabic speakers until some one from Asiut "who was native Coptic speaks" taught them how to talk in the Coptic language and they continued to talk in Coptic until recently
But if this story is true then what makes a person from Asuit speak Bohairic dialect?
Maybe because at that time Bohairic became the dominant language for praying
Why it became the dominant language, this is a question that needs to be answered

Regarding Coptic Font
You are using the old writing system, we here use the Coptic unicode to writing in this forum
Please refer to this document for more details
http://kame.danacbe.com/index.php/topic,217.0.html
Good Luck

27 July , 2009, 05:05:23 am
Reply #13

Offline Andrew

  • Newbie

  • *

  • 22
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 0

Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #13 on: 27 July , 2009, 05:05:23 am »
> But if this story is true then what makes a person from Asuit speak Bohairic dialect?
Maybe because at that time Bohairic became the dominant language for praying
Why it became the dominant language, this is a question that needs to be answered <

I stumbled on the answer, thank God for the internet  :).  "Sahidic dialect is not used in liturgical services since 10th or 11th century, due to the activity of Shihat monks in writing manuscripts, which lead popes to announce Bohairic as the dialect of the Church of Egypt."  http://www.geocities.com/remenkimi/pronounciation.html

I understand this to mean that Coptic liturgical books since the 10th or 11th century have exclusively included the Bohairic dialect / word spelling.  But I don't see how the popes could have prevented people in Upper Egypt from using the Sahidic pronunciation!

BTW, the link you gave me for the Lord's Prayer in "old" Bohairic did not work.

God bless you,

Andrew

 



27 July , 2009, 12:08:48 pm
Reply #14

Offline Admin

  • Administrator

  • *****

  • 1095
    Posts

  • People said thank you: 2

    • Ⲧⲉⲛⲁⲥⲡⲓ
Re: Lord's Prayer
« Reply #14 on: 27 July , 2009, 12:08:48 pm »
I guess that happened in the same way as the way the church followed to replaced original Bohairic with the altered one

Thanks for informing me about the invalid links
I will replace it with a valid ones soon