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Author Topic: Well, there might be hope  (Read 16435 times)

06 October , 2009, 04:28:09 pm
Reply #15

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #15 on: 06 October , 2009, 04:28:09 pm »
How did you know that
Ba is written ⲫⲁ and
Peace is written ϩⲟⲧⲉⲡ or ϩⲟⲧⲡⲉ
is there any old Coptic text that support this?
we can't reply on hieroglyphics because we won't know the vowels

06 October , 2009, 05:30:38 pm
Reply #16

Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #16 on: 06 October , 2009, 05:30:38 pm »
I was just guessing about 'ba' - I have no idea how its spelled... :(

07 October , 2009, 12:17:29 am
Reply #17

Offline ET

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #17 on: 07 October , 2009, 12:17:29 am »
For some reason my browser cant read all the coptic letters in the unicode format (some would appear... I can see the "hory", others appear as rectangles :( )

Maybe we should launch in the project section a topic about gathering the original Egyptian words that were replaced by the Greek in the Coptic language.

IMHO, I see it very hard for a language to lose two of its sounds (7ah and 3ein)... this really puzzles me. For the 'hory' to be pronunced as '7' in the sahidic, what did they do when they wanted to pronunce the 'h' ? In only one day of discussion, I started to have a strong belief that the answers lie in:
1- Demotic
2- Older non-Christian Coptic texts

07 October , 2009, 01:10:29 am
Reply #18

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #18 on: 07 October , 2009, 01:10:29 am »
Hori is admitted to be pronounced either H or 7
for example the word ⲧⲱⲃϩ we pronounce it Tob7 (even crum mention its pronunciation that way)
generally speaking old pronunciation supporters are very open to pronounce Hori 7ah in some words
however 3ain is another issue, because we can't figure out which Coptic letter was used for 3ain (if 3ain was pronounced at all)

07 October , 2009, 06:09:31 am
Reply #19

Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #19 on: 07 October , 2009, 06:09:31 am »
Actually I know that ⲁϣⲁⲓ used to be pronounced 3ashai - according to Wikipedia. In fact according to wiki, this symbol was once used to indicate the sound: (ⳍ)  and lo and behold, it looks a lot like the Arabic 3ein :)
Wiki reckons that if an alpha is placed at the beginning of a word, it represents a 3ein...that's an interesting theory no? Unfortunately there are no sources cited for that section so there's no way to verify it.

Btw, you mentioned collecting some Coptic words? Well I'll post this in the projects section soon but I'll just mention it here now. Several years ago somebody started a Coptic Wiktionary and put about 2 words in it, but I found it a couple of days ago and put in about 6 or 7 more. I think Wiktionary is a great place for us to start collecting all these words we've been talking about...it'll help us start modernising the language. I think we should start focusing our efforts in word collection there. If it grows big enough, they might finally allow a Coptic Wikipedia (which they denied twice because not enough people spoke it). If we get a big enough community of people adding to it, we will have taken a massive step forward in legitimising Coptic as a modern language. What do you think?
 

07 October , 2009, 12:25:27 pm
Reply #20

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #20 on: 07 October , 2009, 12:25:27 pm »
We have been working on a dictionary of our own
http://danacbe.com/Wiki/index.php/Main_Page
I didn't want to use wikitionary because I don't know who will manage the Coptic section if it will be managed at all
there is a board in the forum dedicated to the dictionary project http://kame.danacbe.com/index.php/board,13.0.html
the problem we are currently facing is that, "we don't know how to put/organaize the examples of each word"
please check the topic on the board, we need more contributors and suggestions too

regarding the letter 3ain,
what you said is interesting we also have ⲁⲡⲁⲥ عباس which means "old"
also ⲁϥ عف which means fly دبانه and we say عف عليه الدبان
but I can't say that this is always true
we also have ⲣⲏ shouldn't it be pronounced r3 instead of ra ?
so both ⲁ,ⲏ can be used to represent 3ain ?

10 October , 2009, 04:48:20 pm
Reply #21

Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #21 on: 10 October , 2009, 04:48:20 pm »
I've found something very interesting here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/remenkimi@yahoogroups.com/msg00581.html

In summary, the responder suggests that in all dialects except Bohairic (unfortunately) the 3ein is indicated by doubling the vowels (but only INSIDE a word). So I got out my Sahidic dictionary and discovered that  this applies to some very common words...

E.g. The Sahidic form of ⲉⲑⲃⲏⲧ// (as in concerning, about, because of) is spelled ⲉⲧⲃⲏⲏⲧ//
Also, ˋⲙⲙⲁⲩⲁⲧ// (as in alone/only) is spelt "ˋⲙⲙⲁⲩⲁⲁⲧ//"
Even one of the most common verbs we use in everyday matters: the Bohairic ⲙⲉⲩⲓ is spelt ⲙⲉⲉⲩⲉ in Sahidic.
(The 'e' on the end is because Sahidic words swap 'i' for 'e' in word endings in Bohairic it would be ⲙⲉⲉⲩⲓ)

Could it be that these words are actually pronounced 'etba3at//" "emmawa3at//" and "me3wi" instead of what we usually say?



10 October , 2009, 07:56:42 pm
Reply #22

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #22 on: 10 October , 2009, 07:56:42 pm »
I know about that the double alpha is pronounced 3ain
but I didn't know that it also applies to any vowel
in my opinion it doesn't make any sense that ⲏⲏ and ⲉⲉ and ⲁⲁ are all pronounced 3ain
what I know it that, the repeated vowel indicates stressing on it
I am not good enough in Sahidic to judge, so I can't say your are wrong or right

11 October , 2009, 10:50:19 am
Reply #23

Offline ET

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #23 on: 11 October , 2009, 10:50:19 am »
there is something that i dont get from your post epchois_nai_nan. did your dictionary indicate that these words are pronunced with a 3ein ? if so, is your dictionary a soft copy or a hard copy ?

the other thing, i dont understand why i cant see the coptic fonts here in the forum. i can see them on almost any other site :( . I am using the converter, but after a while it becomes annoying just going back and forth between the forum and the converter.

11 October , 2009, 05:33:55 pm
Reply #24

Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #24 on: 11 October , 2009, 05:33:55 pm »
Oh sorry I've made a mistake! After I checked my dictionary as you said I realised, the double vowels aren't 3ein, they're glottal stops. Like the colloquial pronunciation of the letter qaf in arabic. So for example it seems ⲙⲉⲩⲓ was not "me3wi" but "me'wi" and ⲉⲑⲃⲏⲧ// not "etba3at//" but "etba't//" (the apostrophe represents a glottal stop, where you kind of cut off the flow of breath for a second). 3ein doesn't seem to have been indicated at all - we'll have to rely on the words that we know are pronounced that way  :(

11 October , 2009, 08:14:39 pm
Reply #25

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #25 on: 11 October , 2009, 08:14:39 pm »
ET: please go to this link http://www.moheb.de/unicode_coptic_fonts.html
and download/Install either  "GNU FreeSerif" Or "Arial Coptic"
the reason you can't see coptic here while seeing it everywhere else
because this forum is one of few places that uses "Real" Coptic letters
to know what I mean try to search google for this word ⲫⲛⲟⲩϯ
you will find a lot of coptic text
but try with this vnou] and tell me what you found

12 October , 2009, 02:13:13 am
Reply #26

Offline ET

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #26 on: 12 October , 2009, 02:13:13 am »
ok, thanks for your reply; works great. actually i did install before the athena font but the problem persisted. now it works just fine.

but i wonder why are some letters in the coptic unicode are visible while others are not. the hory and ti were visible while others were not. anyway, not a big deal :) . thanks again.

12 October , 2009, 11:08:23 pm
Reply #27

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #27 on: 12 October , 2009, 11:08:23 pm »
adding support for Coptic letters is pretty recent
in the past the official way to write Coptic was to use the Greek alphabet
but the Greek alphabet lakes the demotic letters ϣ ϥ ϧ ϩ ϫ ϭ ϯ
so those letters were included, therefore any font can display them
but problem is, current Greek alphabet is different than the old one adopted by Copts
in the recently the they finally decided to dedicate independent space for Coptic's alphabet
(except of course the demotic letters because they had their space already)
so any font can any of the letters above, but the remaining alphabet is expected to be supported soon
in the future any font should be able to display Coptic letters properly

22 October , 2009, 11:59:49 pm
Reply #28

Offline ET

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #28 on: 22 October , 2009, 11:59:49 pm »
I came by this file:
http://www.coptic.org/language/maqamat/coptic-nubiann2744.pdf

to be honest I haven't read it, I just skimmed through the file... the interesting part was on page 4. It states a letter that was once used in a form of the Coptic language to note the "3ein", so we're pretty sure now that it is native to danacbe :) . The letter looks like this "<." (a smaller than sign followed by a dot, but the dot is more elevated than the one here.

23 October , 2009, 08:56:50 pm
Reply #29

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Re: Well, there might be hope
« Reply #29 on: 23 October , 2009, 08:56:50 pm »
Quote
Ⲵⲵ COPTIC LETTER OLD COPTIC AIN. This letter is found in the Egyptian Oxyrhynchus Papyrus, where it
represents a Middle Egyptian sound /3/.

Nice to know that, yes I am sure that 3ain existed in Coptic