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Author Topic: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic  (Read 14301 times)

15 November , 2009, 04:48:24 am
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Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« on: 15 November , 2009, 04:48:24 am »
ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ˋⲡϭⲟⲓⲥ


ˋⲛϣⲱⲣⲡ ⲙⲓⲱⲧⲉⲛ ⲧⲏⲣⲟⲩ - ϯⲟⲩⲱϣ ˋⲉⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛⲉⲙⲱⲧⲉⲛ ⲉⲑⲃⲉ ⲟⲩϫⲓⲛⲙⲉⲩⲓ ⲉⲑⲃⲉ ϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲧⲉ ⲧⲁⲓⲁⲥⲡⲓ. ϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲙⲡⲉⲛⲓⲱⲧ Ϣⲉⲛⲟⲩϯ Ⲙⲁϩⲉⲣ ˋⲥⲉⲣⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ ⲣⲱ ⲁⲗⲗⲁ ˋⲥⲉⲣⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲛⲓϧⲁⲉ ˋⲛⲁⲛϣⲉ ˋⲙⲙⲁⲩⲁⲧϥ. Ⲛⲁⲓⲛⲁⲩ ⲉϫⲉⲛ ⲟⲩⲁⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲆⲉⲙⲟⲧⲓⲕ ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲟⲩⲁⲓ ˋⲛϩⲱⲃ ˋⲛˋϥⲑⲱⲧ ⲁⲛ ⲛⲉⲙ ϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲁⲡⲁⲥ ˋⲙⲙⲁⲩⲁⲧϥ - ⲫⲁⲓ ⲉⲧⲉ ϯϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲧⲉ "Ⲃ" ˋⲙⲫⲣⲏϯ ˋⲛ "ⲞⲨ" ϫⲉ ⲁⲓϫⲓⲙⲓ ⲟⲩⲙⲏϣ ˋⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲆⲈⲘⲞⲦⲒⲔ ⲉⲧⲉ ⲟⲩⲟⲛⲧⲟⲩ "Ⲃ" ϧⲉⲛ ⲛⲟⲩϩⲟⲩⲓϯ ⲁⲗⲗⲁ ⲁⲩⲉⲣⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲙⲙⲱⲟⲩ ϫⲉ "B" ˋⲙⲙⲟⲛ "W"

Ⲓⲥϫⲉ ⲧⲉⲛⲟⲩⲱϣ ˋⲉⲥⲁϫⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ ˋⲛⲣⲉⲙˋⲛXⲎⲘⲒ ⲓⲉ ⲙⲏ ˋⲥϣⲉ ˋⲛⲧⲉⲛⲛⲁⲩ ⲉϫⲉⲛ ⲛⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲁⲡⲁⲥ (Ⲇⲉⲙⲟⲧⲓⲕ) ˋⲛⲧⲉⲛϫⲓⲙⲓ ϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ?

(Just in case I've made a mistake which I probably have, here's the above in English :))
I was looking at a Demotic dictionary the other day, and pretty much everything agreed with Abouna Shenouda Maher's pronunciation EXCEPT Beta as "W". I found many examples of words which Abouna would pronunce with a 'w' which are spelled in Demotic with a 'B' (e.g. ⲃⲁⲗ (spelled 'bl' (demotic doesn't use vowels, so we know from Coptic that the sound between them is 'a') but note that it is not spelled 'wl'). I think that if we are to start speaking Coptic again, we should leave out this change as one, it makes things unnecessarily confusing for those learning to read Coptic (B looks like Ⲃ) and I highly doubt that its pronunciation goes back more than 200 years - it is likely to be an Arab corruption of the pronunciation. I agree there are some words which BEGAN to be spelled with Beta when this pronunciation was introduced, but those words often have an alternate spelling using ⲞⲨ instead, so we can tell.

You can find the dictionary here, its VERY interesting: http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/cdd/

 I recognised many words that we still use today in Coptic that are written on manuscripts 2000 years old! It is also interesting because it may be the key to reintroducing 3ain and the glottal stop to Coptic and differentiating between a solid ϫ (g) and a soft ϫ (dj) because again, demotic uses two separate letters for these sounds. If you want to investigate Beta, download the "B" chapter of the dictionary (5th from the top) because many words that OB prounounces with a 'w' are actually found there.


15 November , 2009, 07:27:51 pm
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Re: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« Reply #1 on: 15 November , 2009, 07:27:51 pm »
Good Job! glad to see more people trying to write in Coptic
keep the good work, the following is some corrections I have made for you
(note: just like you, I might make mistakes also so, if any one disagree with this corrections please post a reply)

ϯⲟⲩⲱϣ ˋⲉⲥⲁϫⲓ ϯⲟⲩⲱϣ ˋⲛⲧⲁⲥⲁϫⲓ
ⲟⲩϫⲓⲛⲙⲉⲩⲓ ⲟⲩⲙⲉⲩⲓ ⲓⲉ ⲟⲩⲥⲟϭⲛⲓ
ϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ϯϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ
Ⲛⲁⲓⲛⲁⲩ ⲉϫⲉⲛ ⲟⲩⲁⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲆⲉⲙⲟⲧⲓⲕ
did you mean looking/reading? Ⲛⲁⲓⲱϣ ϧⲉⲛ ⲟⲩⲁⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲆⲉⲙⲟⲧⲓⲕ
or looking for? Ⲛⲁⲓⲕⲱϯ ˋⲛⲥⲁ
ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲟⲩⲁⲓ ˋⲛϩⲱⲃ ˋⲛˋϥⲑⲱⲧ ⲁⲛ ⲛⲉⲙ ϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲁⲡⲁⲥ ˋⲙⲙⲁⲩⲁⲧϥ
ⲟⲩⲟϩ ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲟⲩϩⲱⲃ ˋⲛⲟⲩⲱⲧ ⲉϥⲑⲏⲧ ⲁⲛ  ⲛⲉⲙ ϯϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲁⲡⲁⲥ
ⲫⲁⲓ ⲉⲧⲉ ϯϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲧⲉ "Ⲃ" ⲉⲧⲉ ⲑⲁⲓ ⲧⲉ ϯϫⲓⲛⲱϣ ˋⲛⲃⲓⲧⲁ (Ⲃ) [the way of reading ⲃⲓⲧⲁ]
ϫⲉ ⲁⲓϫⲓⲙⲓ ⲟⲩⲙⲏϣ ϫⲉ ⲁⲓϫⲓⲙⲓ ˋⲛⲟⲩⲙⲏϣ
ϧⲉⲛ ⲛⲟⲩϩⲟⲩⲓϯ ϧⲉⲛ ⲛⲟⲩϩⲟⲩⲁϯ (plural) or ϧⲉⲛ ⲛⲟⲩϩⲟⲩⲓⲧ (because ⲥⲁϫⲓ is masculine)
ⲁⲩⲉⲣⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲙⲙⲱⲟⲩ ⲁⲩϫⲱ ˋⲙⲙⲱⲟⲩ  ( or ⲧⲁⲟⲩⲟ ˋⲙⲙⲱⲟⲩ )
ⲧⲉⲛⲟⲩⲱϣ ˋⲉⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲧⲉⲛⲟⲩⲱϣ ˋⲛⲧⲉⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ
ˋⲛⲧⲉⲛⲛⲁⲩ ⲉϫⲉⲛ ˋⲛⲧⲉⲛⲕⲱϯ ˋⲛⲥⲁ
ˋⲛⲧⲉⲛϫⲓⲙⲓ ϯⲙⲉⲧϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ˋⲛⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ? ˋⲛⲧⲉⲛϫⲓⲙⲓ ˋⲛϯϫⲓⲛⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲉⲧⲛⲟϥⲉⲣ

b and w are very similar letters
just try to pronounce b but without fully closing your lips
say ⲃⲁⲗ without completely closing your lips
that's why B and W used to interchange, for example see the following words
ⲃⲉⲣⲧ - ⲟⲩⲉⲣⲧ (flowers)
ⲃⲁϫⲣⲱⲟⲩ - ⲟⲩⲉϫⲣⲱⲟⲩ (Door-post) [notice: ⲁ and ⲉ also interchanges]
ⲃⲉϫⲃⲱϫ - ⲟⲩⲟϫⲟⲩⲉϫ (to chew)
ⲃⲓⲥⲓ - ⲟⲩⲓⲥⲓ (To saw)
ⲃⲟϣⲃⲉϣ - ⲟⲩⲟϣⲟⲩⲉϣ (To strike)
ⲃⲟϯ - ⲟⲩⲱⲧ(Herbs)
ⲃⲱⲣⲡ - ⲟⲩⲱⲣⲡ (To send)

26 November , 2009, 11:16:08 am
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Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Re: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« Reply #2 on: 26 November , 2009, 11:16:08 am »
Sorry for late reply :) Thankyou for the corrections.

Its true, B and W are very similar and its easy to see how they morphed into each other. I guess it depends on what our goal is, to simply CONTINUE Egyptian the way it was when it was last spoken or to RESTORE it to the oldest pronunciation we can (complete with 3ains and glottal stops etc.)


26 November , 2009, 02:17:24 pm
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Re: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« Reply #3 on: 26 November , 2009, 02:17:24 pm »
as for now, i think we should stick with what we have
later when the Old pronunciation gains popularity, we can add some signs on ⲁ ⲉ ⲏ  to indicate that it was originally "3ain"
as for pronouncing alpha as glottal stops (is that what you mean?)
i think this is only a theory that is not proved yet, or i am wrong?

26 November , 2009, 10:13:49 pm
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Offline abo_dokhana

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Re: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« Reply #4 on: 26 November , 2009, 10:13:49 pm »
موضوع الويدا اللي احيانا تنطق بي ده موجود في كثير من اللغات
على سبيل المثال اللغة السريانية حرف البت ينطق احيانا فاءا واحيانا اخرى باءا واحيانا  واوا
كمان في اللغة العبرية حرف البت ينطق احيانا فاءا واحيانا باء مع ملاحظة ان اللغات السابقة الناس بتوعها بدءوا منذ القرون الأولى يحطوا النقط للتميز بين النطق المختلف
ابونا شنودة بدء يعمل الموضوع ده في حرف الويضا لكن تبقى مشكلة حرف الضاو اللي ليه كذا نطق
كل ما سبق مع ملاحظة ان في حالة كتابة اصوات لغة غنية بالحروف زي المصري والعربي مثلا بحروف لغة اجنبية اخرى فقيرة بالحروف والأصوات   يحصل لغبطة وكمان حروف تضيع مثال حرف الحاء في اللغة القبطية
ϫⲉ `ⲙⲙⲟⲛ ⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲁϭⲛⲉ ⲗⲁⲟⲩⲥ
ⲟⲩⲟϩ `ⲙⲙⲟⲛ ⲗⲁⲟⲩⲥ ⲁϭⲛⲉ ⲁⲥⲡⲓ

26 November , 2009, 10:35:54 pm
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Re: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« Reply #5 on: 26 November , 2009, 10:35:54 pm »
regarding the letter "Dau" Ⲧ it always correspond to ancient Egyptian "D"
so its main pronunciation is "D" but sometimes when the letter comes at the end of the word its pronounced "T" (not a big issue)
of course this rule does not applies to the Greek words

regarding my corrections:
ⲟⲩⲱϣ ˋⲉ... and ⲟⲩⲱϣ ˋⲛⲧⲉ... are both correct
sorry, my mistake

30 November , 2009, 05:46:06 am
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Offline ET

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Re: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« Reply #6 on: 30 November , 2009, 05:46:06 am »
well, in my opinion we should not just stick to what we have for now. Let's be realistic, the old pronunciation will not get popular in the near future, and probably at least for the next ten years. I am not pessimistic, but I guess that we're having a lot of other "hot" topics that are more interesting for the general population than this. I guess that things will go in the same way as it did ever since Fr. Shenooda published his research.

I am for re-introducing the Ain for example- remember that pdf I uploaded like a month ago ? it had the Ain in that form "<." for earlier versions of the coptic, which is a solid proof that the letter is native to the coptic language.

Also, it is a great idea to get the correct pronunciation from the demotic, but I have one question about it: are we sure about how to pronounce the demotic correctly?

One last thing: it's not crazy that a bunch of amateurs and non-pro enthusiasts (like most of us) to try to set their own theories and introduce new standards. Many sciences (for example astronomy) had several breakthroughs from mere amateur contribution. (well it's not crazy as long as these theories make sense :D :P)

30 November , 2009, 08:11:20 pm
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Re: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« Reply #7 on: 30 November , 2009, 08:11:20 pm »
Its not up to us to make any change, we need to get support of the majority of Copts
to get their support we need to convince them
right now convincing is pretty simple, we have manuscripts written in Coptic with Arabic pronunciation
so we tell them look guys we are not fools, look at these manuscripts
they don't have to be professionals in Coptic to be convinced that way

however what you are suggesting require that we convince people with what mentioned above PLUS convening them to accept the pronunciation we got from demotic (and convince them that demotic was pronounced that way too)
you can't convince everyone with that only Coptic language students who has demotic background

my point is: if we can't convince them to use OB in spite of all the evidences we have do u think we should instead convince them to use Coptic pronunciation based on demotic ???!!!!

04 December , 2009, 01:23:34 pm
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Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Re: Pronunciation of Beta (weda) in demotic
« Reply #8 on: 04 December , 2009, 01:23:34 pm »
That is a good point - for the most part, the only change from OB to Demotic would be Weda changing to a 'b' all the time - later we could re-introduce the more exotic sounds like 'qaf', 'Ha' and '3ain', either by introducing new letters or using small symbols on top of letters. The most important thing is getting SOME form of Coptic widely used and spoken and at the moment OB is our best bet.