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Author Topic: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt  (Read 11917 times)

29 December , 2011, 05:06:44 am
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Offline AlexderFranke

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New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« on: 29 December , 2011, 05:06:44 am »
I had posted a post 3 years ago.

In the meantime I have further researched the internet on Coptic and have further questions.

Is it forbidden in Egypt to teach Coptic formally outside monasteries as sometimes is stated on the web? Where do people learn Coptic in Egypt or where or how can they learn Coptic there?

Is speaking Coptic publicly outside church forbidden in Egypt?

Did any Copt publish a book in Coptic in recent decades? I have read of one priest in more recent times who has written Coptic poems.

How many people do you think can hold simple everyday conversations in Coptic? Is it probable to find somebody to talk to in Coptic when visiting a Coptic Church?

In a tourist advisor, they state that they hold Masses in Coptic in the Hanging Church. Does this mean totally in Coptic, including the sermon?

Thank you very much for your answers.

Alex

29 December , 2011, 11:54:12 am
Reply #1

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #1 on: 29 December , 2011, 11:54:12 am »
hi alex,
teaching or speaking copptic is totally legal in egyppt
however the language is dead and no one that i heard of still practice even simple conversations before studying it
church uses coptic language in prayers but they do not pronouncee the letters and the original copts did. read about coptic reform in wikipedia

29 December , 2011, 03:26:24 pm
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #2 on: 29 December , 2011, 03:26:24 pm »
Then the website tells non-sense that states that teaching Coptic would be illegal! Do the Muslimbrothers or Salafists want to change Coptic being legal? Well, great pity then that Coptic is not used any more for talking to each other. However, every young Copt could start learning it and propose to parish members to whom he or she is familiar with:"Why not starting to also speak Coptic in our chats which we use in liturgy? Let`s start it! It is our indigenous language."

Alex

03 January , 2012, 11:20:28 am
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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #3 on: 03 January , 2012, 11:20:28 am »
Salafist and MuslimsBrothers are not even aware that there is something called "Coptic Language" and therefore neither them nor anyway else is trying to do anything against it. its dead man

we should use our language and therefore I created the "Ⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲛⲉⲙⲁⲛ" board where you can only talk in Coptic

12 January , 2012, 05:39:07 pm
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #4 on: 12 January , 2012, 05:39:07 pm »
Do you not think that Muslimbrothers and Salafists would become aware of the Coptic language if it were again to be heard in the streets?

12 January , 2012, 05:42:28 pm
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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #5 on: 12 January , 2012, 05:42:28 pm »
When it is heard again in the streets I will start think about their response, but right now this seems like a far fetched dream

12 January , 2012, 09:07:37 pm
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #6 on: 12 January , 2012, 09:07:37 pm »
So it can be that some other Copts are right now careful and thinking in advance even if hearing Coptic in the streets is a far-fetched dream.
Mona Zaki and Titi Mouris are evidently not thinking like this as there has been an article about them. Others could prefer not to tell about using Coptic and being very careful in Egypt.
Are you living in Egypt? Where do they teach it in Egypt? Are teaching books available in Egyptian book shops
Do you? believe the story about cutting out the tongue for speaking Coptic during a period?
By the way: Do you believe that nearly all Copts could leave Egypt in the near future unless the fearful settings will change?

12 January , 2012, 09:31:15 pm
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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #7 on: 12 January , 2012, 09:31:15 pm »
Quote
So it can be that some other Copts are right now careful and thinking in advance even if hearing Coptic in the streets is a far-fetched dream.
Mona Zaki and Titi Mouris are evidently not thinking like this as there has been an article about them. Others could prefer not to tell about using Coptic and being very careful in Egypt.
In south Egypt there is other people called the Nubians ( Nuba was a country between Egypt and Sudan), They still use their language and no one touched them
Believe me, the time were u get killed for speaking a language almost never existed

Quote
Are you living in Egypt? Where do they teach it in Egypt? Are teaching books available in Egyptian book shops
I live in Egypt, many churches teach Coptic, but they (in my opinion) use wrong method (which is making students study/memorize hundreds of words + grammatical rules)
Catherdral is almost the only place that offer a place for teaching old pronunciation in addition to new pronunciation, I studied there

Quote
Do you? believe the story about cutting out the tongue for speaking Coptic during a period?
its not important because that fact is, Coptic language continued to existence long after this khalif, so it wasn't him who killed it

Quote
By the way: Do you believe that nearly all Copts could leave Egypt in the near future unless the fearful settings will change?
Copts have lived in a much much darker ages, and yet they remained so I don't think so

12 January , 2012, 11:37:19 pm
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #8 on: 12 January , 2012, 11:37:19 pm »
Thank you very much for your information!


Are Coptic lessons limited to Copts and adults?
 Are there lessons by post for those who want to study true Bohairic and do not have lessons around them ?


I could imagine that some families see it as first step of apostasy from Islam if a Muslim wants to learn Coptic.


The teaching methods remind me of stories from Irish lessons in Ireland where they wasted time on matters useless for ordinary students. In my point of view, language lessons ought to aim at passing on skills to understand, write and speak in quite short time with grammar as helping tool. Yes, Coptic lessons ought to handle it a bit like a living language for the sake to set an impuls.


Well, I know that Berber had been banned in Northern African countries (in Libya the longest) as well as Kurdish in Turkey. Speaking it publicly, selling and printing books in it, teaching it and broadcasting in it were more or less strict forbidden. For Libya, it is stated that they had cut phone calls if they found Berber speech.Such could come back and been taken up in Egypt as well for Nubians if Salafists would gain power.


If I were a young Copt with a child, I would think that it is worth speaking Coptic to my child even if only a handful are doing either. He or she would have an even deeper link to the Coptic Church and easily understand texts and liturgy.


I find it being non-sense to want to romanize Coptic or bring hieroglyphes back into use at which aim a few activists. The link to hieroglyphs is totally lost since centuries now. And Roman script as a new one has no traditional link at all. As I have read, there are links rather between Coptic and Greek than Roman culture. It is Western Europe that has close links to Roman culture.


There had been worse times for born Copts indeed. For converts, it is more than evil. But in former times, there had been no cheap flight tickets for leaving Egypt. I am in fear that similar could happen in Egypt as in Iraq. A Copt from California to whom I had talked even fears a new Holocaust.


Sorry for going a bit off from topic. 
« Last Edit: 13 January , 2012, 12:31:02 am by AlexderFranke »

13 January , 2012, 04:00:59 am
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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #9 on: 13 January , 2012, 04:00:59 am »
Reviving a language requires a will of a country or at least a well funded organization,
take hebrew for example, its a sacred language for jews yet it remained dead until israel came back to existance.
mona zaki, is another example. she is not a native speaker what happened is that her father (
or grandfather) learned coptic and decided to use it at home so that their children can learn it and thats how she learned it, but she says should wouldnt pass it to her children because there is no point since no one else uses it and even if she passed it her children will grow up and marry from other families and use the common language "Arabic"

yet we continue here to learn it, at the hope one day a well funded organization will use us to revive it

13 January , 2012, 04:39:36 am
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #10 on: 13 January , 2012, 04:39:36 am »
Reviving Hebrew startet with private initiatives. This later grew to a mass movement and made the British mandate power and later the State of Israel to take it up as official language. From the beginning 20th century onwards Hebrew can be seen again as a living language. Everything begins at grassroots if not acted upon from above.

Well, there is a widespread organisation called Coptic Church who could sustain the revival of Coptic. If many Copts decided to make it the familiy language, this could urge the Coptic Church to enlarge its usage like  Masses totally in Coptic as well as sermons, modern texts and lectures in Coptic.

I do not know how old Mona Zaki´s children are by now. She has regretted not to have passed on Coptic to her children and has changed her point of view. She is herself a so called neo-native speaker. If they are not yet that old, it is not too late. The family of Titi Mouris had stated that husbands and wifes would have to know or learn Coptic and have told of a husband that has agreed to this marrying condition.

Every small language has the problem linked to marriage. Self-confident people are necessary that convince partners to take up the small language as household language. I believe that most small languages will end up in nearly all being second language and neo-native speakers.

At any rate, I am very strong in favour of speaking the own indigenous language at home even if it has (nearly) no active speakers (any more/already). It will enrich the family's and children's life and do no harm. The children will learn the main language anyhow, too. Such Coptic children will find their home language as well at church and could serve very well as teacher of Coptic, later. I have of course to respect other points of views.
« Last Edit: 13 January , 2012, 05:27:37 am by AlexderFranke »

13 January , 2012, 02:12:05 pm
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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #11 on: 13 January , 2012, 02:12:05 pm »
the current patriarche of the church Shenouda III is a  big fan of Arabic and reviving or even using Coptic is not one of his periorities
other than that u r right

13 January , 2012, 02:20:05 pm
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #12 on: 13 January , 2012, 02:20:05 pm »
Well, the priests and other Copts would have to protest and prove that they do not want this pro-Arabic policies.

14 January , 2012, 11:54:43 pm
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Offline abo_dokhana

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #13 on: 14 January , 2012, 11:54:43 pm »
Well, the priests and other Copts would have to protest and prove that they do not want this pro-Arabic policies.
it is more complicated than you may think of
the coptic people are mostly not awar of their identity
may they proudly call themself copt but in fact they r arabized version of christians
ϫⲉ `ⲙⲙⲟⲛ ⲁⲥⲡⲓ ⲁϭⲛⲉ ⲗⲁⲟⲩⲥ
ⲟⲩⲟϩ `ⲙⲙⲟⲛ ⲗⲁⲟⲩⲥ ⲁϭⲛⲉ ⲁⲥⲡⲓ

15 November , 2012, 04:53:13 pm
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Offline zumby143

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Re: New questions about the Coptic language in Egypt
« Reply #14 on: 15 November , 2012, 04:53:13 pm »
Many languages including English, Spanish, and Italian.. all got their start from something called the Romance languages...which you can look up on wikipedia. That's why so many words are like other words in other languages. Very interesting stuff. So if you were to learn the same type of romance languages maybe it would be easier but not some...sorry. Thanks.
Regards,
russian english translation
« Last Edit: 15 November , 2012, 05:16:38 pm by zumby143 »