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Author Topic: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays  (Read 7235 times)

29 December , 2011, 05:16:24 AM
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Offline AlexderFranke

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I am very interested in the topic of maintaining and reviving minorised languages. As the Coptic Christians occurred again in the media in recent times, my view goes again to the Coptic language.

I have read of revivalist attempts in the church by the mid of the 19th century. I wonder why on earth they did not succeed to revive Coptic as well as everyday language. This time was more favorable than our days as there were far less radical Muslims and Panarabists. If a few persons use it as everyday language, the radical Muslims and Panarabists certainly do not mind about it. However, I believe that it is possible that they could start actions against it if it would appear in Egypt as a widespread movement among Coptic Christians.

At any rate, Coptic courses ought to consider everyday use as well and not treat it as dead language. In my point of view, it is important for revivals to teach the language to children and encourage them to use it in everyday life.

Some people say that reviving languages that fell out of everyday use would be artificial. Well, in the case of languages that are totally out of use since long like Ugaritic or Sumerian, I would agree. In the case of Coptic, this would make sense as it has not totally fallen out of presence in church. Furthermore, the Coptic identity still exists with its link to the language even if it is only for liturgical purposes. Some texts left are not from a period that far back. And linguistic heritage is best saved by using languages in everyday life and teaching it as native language to children.

Alex
« Last Edit: 29 December , 2011, 03:33:33 PM by AlexderFranke »

01 January , 2012, 01:45:25 PM
Reply #1

Offline abo_dokhana

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #1 on: 01 January , 2012, 01:45:25 PM »
it all about politics , other than Coptic
church cares about gaining power so, let Coptic language go to hell
coptic cares about their rights none cares about its identities

briefly you may say coptic langauge died out and so the Copts
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02 January , 2012, 04:50:34 AM
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Offline batroc

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #2 on: 02 January , 2012, 04:50:34 AM »
it all about politics , other than Coptic
church cares about gaining power so, let Coptic language go to hell
coptic cares about their rights none cares about its identities

briefly you may say coptic langauge died out and so the Copts


]ekklycia `cmosi cavahou `mpilaoc piry] `ete pilaoc swpi `mmof ec`eswpi `nqytf on `nje ]ekklycia

03 January , 2012, 11:14:38 AM
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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #3 on: 03 January , 2012, 11:14:38 AM »
the attempt of reviving the language in the 19th, failed because insstead of reviving the language the church invented a new pronunciation of the language making the language the church reviving look like a western language.
I really hope we could revive the language as it was

10 January , 2012, 07:12:23 AM
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #4 on: 10 January , 2012, 07:12:23 AM »
Well, I have read about the changes the Church has made take place in the 19th century for political reasons. At any rate no change that makes sense!

If Coptic is forgotten, the Christian faith, the name "Coptic Church" and the Alexandrine rite will remain. But a language is an important identity marker and link to heritage.  The nearly total loss of the Coptic language beside the Muslim faith among Muslims is an important reason that citizens of the state of Egypt are often called Egyptian Arabs today.

Of course, human rights of Coptic Christians are a great cause for concern and sorrow which causes me to ask where is God. This however is no reason to forget the care about identity. The Coptic Church is the only imagineable force to save a world heritage linked to Ancient Egypt and the coptic language. Human rights for Coptic Christians in the end are also relevant  for saving this heritage. By the way: Pre-Arabic heritage is very much linked to church in Mesopotamia, too.

Alex

10 January , 2012, 11:10:18 AM
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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #5 on: 10 January , 2012, 11:10:18 AM »
there is attempts to teach / revive the orginal pronunciation, but most people give up quickly (or even slowly) when they feel its not used by church or anywhere else

11 January , 2012, 09:49:15 PM
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #6 on: 11 January , 2012, 09:49:15 PM »
Well, Copts beginning to take up Coptic in everyday life are free to do so in true Bohairic and to foster others to do the same. The professor Kamal Farid Ishac has written an overview of Coptic sayings in everyday life, yet, on the web.

As a teacher of Coptic, one can teach both Greco-Bohairic and true Bohairic and tell those in the lessons the background of this matter. The teacher is free to foster them to bring the talk onto true Bohairic in their parishes. They are also free to work out some everyday settings as well.

Alex

11 January , 2012, 09:59:58 PM
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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #7 on: 11 January , 2012, 09:59:58 PM »
Many people tried to learn both Greco-Bohairic and true Bohairic,
but that made them not accurate at pronouncing any of them
I am not saying my opinion here, I am saying what I practically experienced with both seniors and new comers

11 January , 2012, 11:19:58 PM
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Offline AlexderFranke

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #8 on: 11 January , 2012, 11:19:58 PM »
Those who begin to talk Coptic in everyday life should do so in true Bohairic. When they read out or sing something at church, it is not that bad if they do it not rightly at 100% as Greco-Bohairic itself is not the true Bohairic. Otherwise, those folks could ask if they are allowed to read out how they are talking to XY in true Bohairic. In choir, of course, everybody must sing the same sounds.

Alex
« Last Edit: 11 January , 2012, 11:22:33 PM by AlexderFranke »

05 December , 2024, 04:11:05 AM
Reply #9

Offline bashandy

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #9 on: 05 December , 2024, 04:11:05 AM »
The attempt of revival of Coptic language, has been associated chronologically with two movements:
  • Rise of nationalism in Europe, and Pharaonism in Egypt esp. post the French Expedition (1798-1801 CE)
  • Union project with the Greek church, spearheaded by Pope Cyril IV in Egypt, and Patriarch Kalinikos of the Byzantine Church in Egypt. This project aimed at supplanting Coptic hymns and rites for Greek ones and in return the Coptic Pope would rule over all churches in Egypt (Coptic & Greek). This gave rise to the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation according to Yassa AbdelMessih
These gave rise to the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation. However, the spoken language revival was engineered by Claudius Labib, then Pisenty Rizkalla and others. Claudius Labib was a prolific author who wrote educational books, Coptic magazines, typed the Psalmody and other ecclesiastical books using the typewriter. He also authored the first Coptic/Arabic Dictionary, and the first proper Coptic dictionary in history predating W.E. Crum's dictionary. It is said that he died while writing his dictionary.

The study of linguistics, phonetics and phonology were at their infancy. Consequently, native pronunciation was looked down upon as 'corrupt' etc. The other aspect was that there was lack of availability of most manuscripts, as they were not studied yet or published.

Claudius Labib pioneered four aspects (pronunciation, purification, neologisms, writings):
  • Using Greco-Bohairic pronunciation: assuming it is the 'right' pronunciation. He modified the initial Greco-Bohairic pronunciation of Iryan Moftah and made sure that letters are pronounced differently depending on whether the word was of Greek or Coptic etymology
  • Attempted to eliminate Greek vocabulary from Coptic, and used Coptic alternatives, or coined new words or approximated from Hieroglyphic.
  • Created many neologisms to match day-to-day things eg trains, postoffice, bicycle. These were added to the dictionary with no clear connotation that they are neologisms or unattested words.
  • Created corpus of writings in Coptic. This was closer to a pidgin rather than traditional Coptic, possibly owing to the lack of availability of manuscripts, and lack of development of the difference between how each language function conceptually, not only grammatically.
The combination of modified Greco-Bohairic, neologisms, removal of Greek words, and new phrases that are coined to resemble (occasionally literal translation) Arabic or French. This created a pidgin form of the language, which made learners struggle to comprehend an old Coptic manuscript. These changes were dubbed the name 'The Claudian dialect'.

However, Claudius Labib did a huge work, and would not deserve any criticism, as in the historical context and its limitations, he went above and beyond to attempt to revive Coptic language.

While one would disagree of some of his methodologies, and subsequently the endproduct. I tip my hat in respect to his huge works and efforts.
« Last Edit: 05 December , 2024, 02:23:49 PM by bashandy »
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05 December , 2024, 02:34:01 PM
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Offline bashandy

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #10 on: 05 December , 2024, 02:34:01 PM »
Greco-Bohairic (Modern Ecclesiatical Pronunciation):
 In essence, linguistics is a descriptive field. It does not say which pronunciation is 'right' or 'wrong'. Pronunciation is essentially a code. However, there are various issues that arise on abandoning the native tradition, with its histrocity. I'll quote the opinions of Coptologists for that matter. Here are synopsis of commentaries by Coptologists who were interested in the field of Bohairic pronounciation.
About Bohairic (OB), as the only dialect used in Egypt & about the  term Sahidic >"Bohairic is the only dialect known to the present-day Copts.."
"The term <Sahidic> (Sa'idi) nowadays is reserved exclusively for  the despised <old> pronounciation of Bohairic, as heared particularly among the peasantry of Upper Egypt" (W.H.Worrell, Coptic texts Ann Arbor 1942) About the comparison between the Old Bohairic (OB) & the new one GrecoBohairic. >"Among the peasantry of Upper Egypt, their survives in ceratin places a family tradition about the pronounciatio of Coptic,  which though extremely meagre, is genuine & superior to the pronounciation of the clergy emanating from Cairo. They have great pride in the posession of a family tradition & its superiority" (Worell, A short Account of the Copts, Michgan 1945)

About the discovery of W.Till that all the Coptic liturgical tradition is Bohairic & not Sahidic >"Till, in 1929 reached the correct conclusion that traditional Coptic pronounciation is at best Bohairic not Sahidic" (Worell, Coptic sounds Ann Arbor 1934)

About the Greco-Bohairic naming it reformed pronounciation & the superiority of Old Bohairic over it. >"The reform pronounciation has introduced errors & confusion"
"Reform should have been in the direction of the peasant tradition, but that was too much to expect. Instead, Modern Greek values were introduced systematically, & these values are unfortunately being taught by those who are backing the very creditable enterprise of reviving the Coptc language in Egypt. The old tradition is now to be found so far as I know, only in Upper Egypt, or among those who have come from there & who have not yielded to the pressure of the cities (Worell Coptic Texts Ann Arbor 1942)

About the introduction of Modern Greek pronounciation to the Bohairic >"The introduction of the Modern Greek into Coptic nowadays is often an affectation: as though one were to pronounce all the French words in English according to the present usage of Paris. If this is bad, how much worse it is to pronounce Coptic according to the artificial Erasmian Greek system which belongs to no race, age place or dialect..." (Worrell, Coptic Sounds)

"It is not necessary to suppose that the Copts took over Greek letters with exactly their current Greek values but only their approximate ones. Even sounds ordinarily identified in two lnaguges are rarely actually identical. That is the case, for example when Persian or Turkish is written in Arabic letters. It is not likely that Coptic and Greek vowels were identical" (Worell, Coptic Sounds)

About the Greco-Bohairic in educational books >"All modern books written on Coptic by native authors adopt more or less a mutilated form of Greek pronounciation & apply it entirely to their language. Unfortunately, none of our native authors here knows sufficient Greek to realise the outstanding  mistakes he is trying to form into rules applicable to the Coptic language" (Georgy Sobhy,Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 1915)

About the superiority of authentic Bohairic (Old Bohairic) over the Greco-bohairic pronounciation. >"I believe that an ordinary uneducated priest in reciting any Coptic prayer in Church pronounces the language much more correclty & naturally too than if he followed these erroneous rules set down in the modern Coptic books" (Georgy Sobhy,Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 1915)

About the superiority of inherited Coptic pronounciation (old Bohairic) over the Greco-Bohairic >"Its unbroken use in the Church has undoubtedly preserved its pronounciation, for it has been handed down from one generation of priests to another until our days; and in my own belief a priest who has learned to pronounce this language from his predecessor without the use of the modern sophisticated rules exhibited by Coptic authors in their writings does inherenlty pronounce it more rightly than any other man" (Georgy Sobhy,Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 1915)

About the introduction of the mutilated Greek pronounciation >"The soundest observation that Sobhy has made is that the introduction of an ignoranlty mutilated Greek pronounciation is to be depreceated" About a text dating to the 10th Century were Arabic was written in Coptic letters, & comparing pronounciation of the 10th Century to the one used at the churches (Old Bohairic) that was used excessilvely at that time. >"The importance of these leaves is paramount. They teach (us) first of all how Arabic was pronounced in the period when the manuscript was written ... They also teach us that until the period at which the manuscript was written Coptic was still the language spoken by the monks & the Coptic church at least in Monasteries. Last of all, the most important result of studying these leaves is the knowledge we gain of the values of different letters in the coptic alphabet and their equivalents in Arabic. It corresponds most closely with the actual pronounciation of Coptic in the Church" (H.G.Evelyn White, New Texts from the  Monastery of St.Macarius NY 1926).

About a manuscript dating to 1722 written in coptic & arabiczed Coptic (Coptic written in Arabic letters) >"Here lies the value of the book which shows us how Coptic was universally produced in Egypt in the Early XVIII century A.D. & when we compare it with the earlier manuscript & with the manuscript of St.Macarius which was Arabic in language but Coptic in lettering we can hardly detect any difference whatever in the phonetic values of the letters or in the way they were pronounced. Going back still further in time we can, from the documents we have, prove the stability of this pronounciation through the ages. Even the glosses written over the demotic words in Greek letters in the demotic magical papyrus of London  & Leiden show that the pronounciation in our book is practically the same as demotic of the above manuscript, which brings us  back to IInd Century A.D. (Georgy Sobhy, Tradional Pronounciation of Coptic in Church of Egypt, 1940).
« Last Edit: 05 December , 2024, 02:37:38 PM by bashandy »
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05 December , 2024, 02:56:31 PM
Reply #11

Offline bashandy

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #11 on: 05 December , 2024, 02:56:31 PM »
Elimination of Greek loanwords:
Coptic - like most languages - uses loanwords from other languages. The vocabulary of Coptic language has 20-40% of its vocabulary from Greek depending on the context where it is used. On average, it is about 20-25% according to a lecture by Prof. Gawdat Gabra. However, the percentage rises in translated texts and liturgical texts. Coptic language uses loanwords from Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Arabic, Persian, Akkadian, Latin and many others.
This process of vocabulary purge, or 'purism' (depending on the viewers perspective): was done in other languages. In the 1920's turcologists attempted to do the same to rid Turkish from Arabic and Persian vocabulary. The process was described as
Quote
'an irreconcilable, if misinformed, purism risked producing ambiguity, total incomprehension, or tautological gridlock'
.
The process of purging vocabulary was also noticed in Russian, and other languages. The main difficulty with it, is that in Coptic, this might render the entire Coptic literary heritage unreadable, if a learner only learns words of Coptic origin (however, this would also contain other languages). There are no clear statistics on the loanwords from other languages in Coptic, however, the net result would be an impoverished version of the language.
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05 December , 2024, 06:58:51 PM
Reply #12

Offline bashandy

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Re: Revivalist attempts in the mid of the 19th century and nowadays
« Reply #12 on: 05 December , 2024, 06:58:51 PM »
Neologisms

The topic of neologisms is quite difficult and diverse. Neologisms happen naturally in living languages either by coining new terms or borrowing from other languages. The difficult with Coptic is that it is a dead language.

Many neologisms made were basically literal translation of an Arabic, English or French term. These do not necessarily reflect how Copts think about describing an idea, or an object.

For example, a computer mouse is named like that as it looked like a mouse in the eyes of the person who named it. I wonder if Copts would have seen it this way. For example, it could have been named by the Copts as the pointer (owing to its function that it points on the screen), or the  clicker (owing it to its sound), or the underpalm (owing to its position), or the white thing (owing to its colour, or the computer wheel,  etc.

Without having clear knowledge whether Copts named things after their function, shape, position, colour it would be difficult to continue in the same ethos of Coptic language.

Without knowing whether Copts leaned into coining, or repurposing or generating words ex-nihilo it would be difficult to maintain that in Coptic language

In the case of the current revival attempts, there have been a flurry of ill conceived neologisms, appropriated from Arabic, English, French or Middle Egyptian. There was no deep thought that came into these terms, and hence the outcome was confusing, erroneous and the ethos of spreading words was less than organised.

Claudius Labib codified his neologisms in his dictionary, the only caveat is that he did not add footnotes about his neologisms, but at lease there was a repository of the terms that he used. This in turns open the door for identification analysis and critique.

Others spread new terms, in social media, or instant messaging apps, mostly with no experience with the language itself, and these ill-conceived neologisms are causing miscommunication and mayhem.

Others write their neologisms in books, but, there is no consensus and expertise in this field is highly required as it is not just a natural extension of being a good teacher of the language.  This matter require dedication and academic rigour. In many places, there is an academy that attempts to codify words of a language. In the current status of Coptic, there is chaos.

Neologisms have also been subject to serve other ideologies. For example, there are ones who lean on utilising Middle or Late Egyptian believing that this is a more pure form of the language, without knowing how these words sounded esp. if written without vowels in Middle Egyptian, and overlooking that there were centuries between Middle Egyptian and Coptic.

The revival attempts never addressed these issues in a methodical way, and hence, the current situation is chaotic.
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