Our Coptic language > Old pronunciation vs new debate

"Real" pronunciation of Coptic H

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Admin:

--- Quote ---(Sahairic) KHME,  XHMT -  Egypt = (Egyptian)  km.t
--- End quote ---
This part is true but prove it was pronounced [ k(h)u: mat]  hieroglyphics clearly doesn't mention the letter u

Anaksunamun:

--- Quote from: Admin on 27 September , 2014, 04:15:50 PM ---
--- Quote ---(Sahairic) KHME,  XHMT -  Egypt = (Egyptian)  km.t
--- End quote ---
This part is true but prove it was pronounced [ k(h)u: mat]  hieroglyphics clearly doesn't mention the letter u

--- End quote ---

Ok, let's see if I can try to explain this, because it's complicated and because I realized I forgot to mention something since the beginning:

Canaaite Vowel Shift occurred sometime in Middle to Late Kingdom.
Short stressed 'u'  (and e/i) merged into 'eh'
     (Egyptian) d'n.t - Tanis [Tu?nat]  = [Hebrew]  șun > șō'an
        But Akkadian - șe-e'-nu/șa-a'-nu
          **Egyptian 'ď' is d with _ under it **

Long stressed 'u' turned to long 'eh' sound (according to foreign  renditions of Egyptian words) :

  (Egyptian)  šnj - tree = (Akkadian) si - ni  = [šu:n_j]
  (Egyptian) hrw - servant = (Hurrian) xel = [xu:raw]


Late Egyptian 'e' then turned into Coptic 'E, Coptic 'A' and Coptic 'H', depending on dialect.
An exception to this rule of Late Egyptian 'eh' turning into 'E', 'A' and 'H' is Fayyumic :

     (Fayyumic Coptic) (sh)IIM(sh)I - to worship = šemše - (Egyptian) šmsj

.....

So according to Loprieno Antonio original Egyptian 'u' was turned into 'eh' by Middle to Late Kingdom and Coptic has rendered Egyptian 'eh' into either Coptic 'E', 'A' or 'H' depending on dialect and/or phonetic environment.

I was wrong in part of what I said because original Egyptian 'u' is sometimes rendered as 'A' in Coptic but not if it was rendered as Coptic 'H' which would be pronounced 'ee' like in English 'meat'.

Anaksunamun:

--- Quote from: Admin on 27 September , 2014, 03:56:07 PM ---I checked Crum and you are right its ϩⲏ not ϩⲉ
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/TABS/crum/ppages/CrumP164537.gif

Still as far as I am concerned that proves ⲏ was used for the ancient letter 3 . it doesn't prove ⲏ was pronounced u.


--- End quote ---


I found it:

Anaksunamun:

--- Quote from: Admin on 27 September , 2014, 04:15:50 PM ---
--- Quote ---(Sahairic) KHME,  XHMT -  Egypt = (Egyptian)  km.t
--- End quote ---
This part is true but prove it was pronounced [ k(h)u: mat]  hieroglyphics clearly doesn't mention the letter u

--- End quote ---



I wanted to update you on my studies and thoughts with this sound and I have completely changed my stance on it. I ENTIRELY agree with you that there is no physical proof that H was pronounced 'u' in the old language and I wanted to add a few reasons why below. Please feel free to also explain why you believe this to be so as well to help us further the study on it:


Coptic shows alternations with Ⲏ and Ⲁ, but rarely if ever Ⲏ and ⲟⲩ


Ⲏ is typically the result of monophthongization (the process of a diphthong or a triphthong becoming a monophthong) from Egyptian hieroglyphics


The reason why some scholars have posited 'u' is because of Akkadian/Cuneiform renditions of Egyptian words and I have notvcied that 'u' is in unstressed position which would mean that 'u' is an Akkadian form of Coptic Ⲉ, Ⲏ or 0 (zero) in unstressed position




What do you think


 

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