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Author Topic: Pyramids  (Read 1027 times)

26 September , 2017, 11:25:15 AM
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Offline ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ

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Pyramids
« on: 26 September , 2017, 11:25:15 AM »
ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ,

I knew that m.r [1] was the word for pyramid in ancient Egyptian, but what about in Coptic? I could not find a word for it. Is it related to the Coptic word ⲙⲏⲣ (S) or ⲙⲏⲓⲣⲓ (B) to mean a bundle (i.e., a bundle of stones, may be; ⲙⲏⲓⲣⲓ `ⲛⲱⲛⲓ)?

ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ,
ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mr

01 October , 2017, 10:28:18 AM
Reply #1

Offline bashandy

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #1 on: 01 October , 2017, 10:28:18 AM »
Unofortunately, Crum does not state a word that describes the term 'pyramid'. the Greek term was mentioned.

14 December , 2017, 03:40:23 AM
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Offline ⲓⲁϩⲙⲟⲥⲓ

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #2 on: 14 December , 2017, 03:40:23 AM »
ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ.
ⲙⲉⲛⲉⲛⲥⲁ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ `ⲛⲧⲉ ϯⲙⲉⲧϣⲗⲟⲗ (ϯⲁⲥⲡⲓ `ⲛⲉⲡⲓⲥⲧⲟⲗⲟⲅⲣⲁⲫⲓⲕⲟⲥ) `ⲙⲙⲟⲛ ⲟⲩⲥⲙⲟⲧ `ⲛ<<mr>> `ⲙⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ. ⲗⲓⲗⲁⲥⲁϥ `ⲛⲧⲉⲛⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ `ⲛϯⲡⲣⲟⲫⲟⲣⲁ `ⲛⲧⲉ <<mr>> ⲁⲛ.

ⲡⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲙⲏⲓⲣⲓ `ⲛϥⲓ ⲁⲛ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ⲡⲓ<<mr>> ϫⲉ ϯⲡⲣⲟⲫⲟⲣⲁ `ⲛⲧⲉ <<mr>> `ⲙⲙⲉⲧⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ `ⲛⲧⲉ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲣⲟ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ ⲡⲉ *mV [V ⲡⲉ ⲟⲩⲣⲉϥϯⲥⲙⲏ ⲉⲧⲉⲛⲥⲟⲩⲱⲛϥ ⲁⲛ] - `ⲙⲙⲟⲛ ⲡⲓⲕⲁⲡ ⲣⲟ ϧⲉⲛ ϯⲡⲣⲟⲫⲟⲣⲁ `ⲛⲧⲉ ϯⲙⲉⲧⲟⲩⲣⲟ `ⲙⲃⲉⲣⲓ ⲛⲉⲙⲡⲓⲥⲏⲟⲩ `ⲛⲧⲉ ⲡⲓⲗⲁⲥ `ⲛⲧⲉ ϯⲙⲉⲧϣⲗⲟⲗ. ⲗⲓⲗⲁⲥⲁϥ `ⲛⲧⲉⲛⲥⲱⲟⲩⲛ `ⲙⲡⲓⲣⲉϥϯⲥⲙⲏ (ⲡⲓⲫⲱⲛⲏⲉⲛ) ϧⲉⲛⲡⲁⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ.

`ⲙⲫⲟⲟⲩ ⲁⲧⲁⲧⲁⲛ ⲛⲓⲣⲉⲙⲛⲭⲏⲙⲓ ⲉⲣⲭⲣⲁⲥⲑⲉ `ⲙⲡⲓⲥⲁϫⲓ ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ.
« Last Edit: 17 December , 2017, 07:22:50 PM by ⲓⲁϩⲙⲟⲥⲓ »

23 January , 2019, 11:48:30 PM
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Offline ⲡⲓⲙⲟⲩⲓ

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #3 on: 23 January , 2019, 11:48:30 PM »
ⲛⲟϥⲣⲓ,

Coincidentally, I stumbled upon a twitter post [1] of an early issue of 'Ayn Shams' journal published by Claudius Labib. And, it seems that he used the word 'ⲁⲃⲙⲉⲣ' to refer to a Pyramid ([2]). 'ⲁⲃⲙⲉⲣ' appears to be from (probably reconstructed) the ancient Egyptian word m.r. However, it's not clear how Claudius came up with that word. Any ideas?

[1] https://twitter.com/dan_a_lowe/status/961638947033112576
[2] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVhtgM0WkAEfDTM.jpg (via [1])

24 January , 2019, 01:27:33 AM
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Offline ophadece

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #4 on: 24 January , 2019, 01:27:33 AM »
Many scholars blame Claudius Labib for inventing many words on a whim. I wouldn't be able to absolutely judge on every instance..
Oujai
Ⲁⲣⲓϩ̀ⲙⲟⲧ ϣ̀ⲗⲏⲗ ⲉϩⲣⲏⲓ ⲉϫⲱⲛ ⲡⲓⲥⲛⲁⲩ

27 January , 2019, 02:25:29 AM
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Offline bashandy

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #5 on: 27 January , 2019, 02:25:29 AM »
The short answer to your question is I do not know. The word was not mentioned in Crum, so it is hard to predict, but ou can borrow from Greek.

As for C. Labib he wa a scholar who came at a unique point in time, with the rise of nationalism, and a general thinking about linguistic determinism which was later crystallised by the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (not much evidence to support its validity).


He endeavoured the huge task of revival of Coptic language, which coincided with the revival of Hewbrew. He was faced with numerous difficulties, to start with Coptic is a dead language, many words were already lost, the pronunication was not clear, and lack of words to express the new inventions velocipede, machine a vapeur, post-office. With this nationalism he had a general zeal for 'purifying' Coptic of Greek influence (20%-40% of vocabulary of Coptic).


Labib started coining words, and adding the newly coined words to his dictionary and books. As a revivalist, his concern did not seem to have  committee to approve words, but rather to start the process of revival. Moreover, compared with others, he seemed to have the creative impetus to write texts in Coptic and coin or create words, which he used his best knowledge and understanding to come up with them. He may have relied on Hieroglyphic, ?Amhari Manekeeya : Manxa (spoon) instead of misteer. etc. He used other prefixes in new contexts e.g. rem+anzyb (student), he coined words like French words of velocipede, pomme de terre,  instead of CBWOYI or the Greek word MATHETES. Unfortunately, we do not have a trace of his methodology. He also used nifi instead of pneuma/pnevma


Labib also marketed Coptic language by showing how it affected Colloquial Arabic of Egypt (AE), and even went to show how it may have  influenced English language. The technique was mainly by comparing sounds and meaning rather than a full scholarly etymological research.

Labib modified the Greco-Bohairic pronunciation slightly, and was an advocate of it. The reasons are not clear, whether he believed that it is an authentic pronunciation, or whether he adopted it for pedagogical purposes.

Labib also used a new style of composing sentences in Coptic, in some instances it seemed closer to French, in other instances looked closer to Arabic. Sometimes adjectives followed nouns like French and Arabic, instead of the more common adjective - noun order in the majority of Coptic text, occasional omissions of verb to be, which is reminiscent of AE.

During his short life, he served Coptic massively, he published the first known book series with pictures to teach children, he wrot grammar books, with exercises and original secular texts and songs rather than relying on religious texts. He published a magazine in Coptic. He re-edited and presented a modernised version of Scala & texts of desert fathers. Publishing church books in Coptic. However, his masterpiece was his dictionary, the first modern dictionary of Coptic language,  which unfortunately, he died while working on it.

Posthumously, he became an iconic champion and a source of inspiration for learners of Greco-Bohairic pronunciation. Many tried to copy his steps. On the other hand, proponents of Old Bohairic pronunciation, have been critical of his adoption and popularisation of Greco-Bohairic pronunciation. Scholars find it challenging to decode the etymology of his lexicon.

A century after his death, his prints of the psalmody and other liturgical books are still in use, more modern Coptic-Arabic Dictionaries use his lexicon as a resource, his approach to the language remain inspiring. Labib left a legacy of massive publication and polarizing opinions.


03 February , 2019, 04:34:31 AM
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Offline oromi

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #6 on: 03 February , 2019, 04:34:31 AM »
Ⲁⲃⲙⲉⲣ is basically a Coptic transcription of Wallis Budge's erroneous transliteration of 𓍋𓅓𓂋𓉴 as abmer (whereas modern scholarship transliterates it mr). Obviously, as a bona fide Coptic word for pyramid this objectionable on several levels notwithstanding Claudius Labib's many other contributions to Coptic.

03 June , 2019, 03:45:12 AM
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Offline ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #7 on: 03 June , 2019, 03:45:12 AM »
What word should be use for "pyramid" though?
Greek ⲡⲩⲣⲁⲙⲓⲥ?
Arabic ⲁⲗϩⲁⲣⲁⲙ?
Try to reconstruct mr? Would it be ⲙⲁ in Coptic (cause r was lost in the 2nd millennium BC (like in nfr and all other words ending in r and there is the possibility that it was originally mar (with a short a), which would develop into má, this could yield Coptic ⲙⲁ, see https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wp/cop/%E2%B2%A5%E2%B2%81%CF%AB%E2%B2%93_%60%E2%B2%99%E2%B2%83%E2%B2%89%E2%B2%A3%E2%B2%93_%60%E2%B2%9B%E2%B2%A3%E2%B2%89%E2%B2%99%E2%B2%9B%E2%B2%AD%E2%B2%8F%E2%B2%99%E2%B2%93)?

03 June , 2019, 03:37:59 PM
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Offline bashandy

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #8 on: 03 June , 2019, 03:37:59 PM »
I would go with the Greek word πυραμιδα as probably Copts were using it, even before Arabic. I would have my concerns about reconstructing words from AE.

05 June , 2019, 03:50:56 PM
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Offline ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #9 on: 05 June , 2019, 03:50:56 PM »
This has to be irrelevant but Scala Magna has this:

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k1097707/f356.image

ⲛⲉⲱⲕⲉⲣⲓⲥ? ϯⲣⲉϥⲥⲟⲗⲥⲉⲗ ⲛⲧⲉ ⲛⲓⲁⲣⲫⲏⲟⲩⲓ??

08 June , 2019, 06:39:35 PM
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Offline ⲥⲉⲣⲕⲓ

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Re: Pyramids
« Reply #10 on: 08 June , 2019, 06:39:35 PM »
Also what do you think about Schenkel's theory about Coptic ⲫⲓⲣⲁⲙ (ⲡ+ϩⲓⲣⲁⲙ, ⲣⲁⲙ stands for Egyptian mr as far as i understood it) being the source of both πυρανισ and هرم?