Our Coptic language > Old pronunciation vs new debate
Classical Coptic Pronunciation
Andrew:
> We are trying to revive a dialect lost as a spoken one as our forefathers said it. <
Hi Fady:
The question is which forefathers: those who lived in 200 AD or those who lived in 1600 AD?
In universities outside Egypt, they teach what is believed to be Coptic pronunciation from the Roman period. We can call this “old” pronunciation (OP).
The followers of Dr Emile Maher Ishak believe that they figured out the pronunciation near the latest stages of spoken Coptic. We can call this Arabi-Bohairic (AB). They made no attempt to figure out how Greek language was pronounced in Egypt at that time.
For over 150 years, the Coptic liturgy has used so called Greko-Bohairic (GB) pronunciation.
It makes sense to me to continue using GB because: 1) It’s more compatible with the Greek sections in the liturgy. 2) It will be confusing to change traditions. 3) There are pitfalls of AB that contributors in this forum have already pointed out.
If any change is attempted, one should seriously consider the OP, being taught all over the world.
What pronunciations are now taught in Egypt?
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ
Ⲁⲛⲇⲣⲉⲁⲥ
ophadece:
Hi Andrew,
Reviving a language is the point where that language had been lost. It is not a priority exercise to revive an old pronunciation just because it is being studied abroad. This in itself is quite commendable but unnecessary. I am an Egyptian and I know the history of Egypt, people were not speaking Greek 200 years ago. Greek is not an Egyptian language, it just affected Coptic to an extent..
By the way the Italians are not consistent in pronouncing 'p' in their language either, it is also pronounced as 'b' in some cases.. Thanks for this wonderful conversation.
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ
Andrew:
Hi Ophadece:
I appreciate the conversation with you, also. Studying any language is a major effort. I really admire your knowledge of the Coptic language and feel that studying it provides a connection with saints who have joined the victorious Church.
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ
Ⲁⲛⲇⲣⲉⲁⲥ
Canis Majoris:
In reviving the Coptic language, the main purpose of having a pronunciation is to facilitate communication between people- and which people is the key.
* Greco-Bohairic Pronunciation panders to the Orthodox Churches of the Mediterranean, Greek and Egyptian.
* Arabo-Bohairic Pronunciation panders to Arabic Egyptians because it is the easiest to pronounce compared to their native language.
* Classical Coptic Pronunciation panders to scholars and most foreign Egyptian language learners.
Greco-Bohairic:
Greco-Bohairic is most useful for continuation of the Orthodox Church's pronunciation of liturgy. Mostly priests, Coptic Christians, and clergy would learn this pronunciation.
See this Egyptian conversation talking about Christ, the afterlife, angels, etc.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S55dR7hRDrY. Note: although they speak with Greek pronunciation, you can hear that they speak with heavy Arabic emphasis, intonation, and vowel quality. Here is another video where a Coptic priest teaches an Arabic Egyptian congregation Greek pronunciation, but with heavy Arabic emphasis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQvNeoqQ9DE
Arabo-Bohairic
As stated above, Arabo-Bohairic is the easiest to pronounce for Arabic Egyptians. The reason for this is because the most recent Coptic was very Arabicized in grammar, in phonology(pronunciation), and in vocabulary(most words in use would not be of Kemetic Egyptian nor Greek origin, but from Arabic). Though linguistic assimilation made Coptic extinct by the 1700's, it makes Arabo-Bohairic much more suited to modern Arabic Egyptians.
In terms of reviving the language- if there were a way to gain enough passion among Arabic Egyptians- including the Islamic Egyptians, this would be the best chance of natively reviving the language from being a passive Classical language only used in the Orthodox Church. It would allow Egyptians :^^^ to speak their native language again.
Classical Coptic
Classical Egyptian is the way that most Western speakers, scholars, hobbyists, and learners passionate about the Coptic/Kemetic dialects would pronounce Coptic- it is derived from the historical way to pronounce the ancient texts. Many Western speakers who learn Classical languages share the historical pronunciation approach whether in Classical Latin, Greek, Arabic, Hebrew, Sanskrit etc.
Compare the Classical approach to modern religious: Latin is pronounced like modern Italian in the modern Roman Catholic church, Greek is pronounced like modern Greek in the Greek Orthodox Church, Arabic is pronounced like the modern Bedouins of Saudi Arabia , Hebrew is pronounced like modern Hebrew, and Sanskrit is pronounced like Hindi.
The Classical approach would be the best way to revive Coptic outside of Egypt; I personally believe it is unlikely that there will be enough passion in the Western world for an external revival - there aren't many Coptic Egyptian learners, unlike in Greek, Latin, or Hebrew. It probably wouldn't happen unless Egypt received massive immigration and endorsed teaching Coptic rather than Arabic.
Revival of languages:
In terms of reviving languages, the usual way a revival to succeed is if there is a necessity(learning new languages takes a lot of dedication). Modern examples of successful revivals are Italian and Hebrew.
Modern Italian comes from a dialect of Italian from Tuscany spoken in the middle ages, circa 1200 A.D. It became a Classical language, and by the 1800's it was used only by around 100,000 scholars in Italy. The unification of all of the Italian states necessitated a common language, as all of the former kingdoms spoke different languages (Venetian, Neapolitan, Sicilian, Etc.) A massive education reform occurred during the 1900's- now 70 million people worldwide speak Italian.
Hebrew as well was revived from a Classical language used by rabbis- after WW2 the massive exodus of European Jews to the newly created Israel caused the need for a common language. Attempts to revive the Hebrew language before WW2 were unsuccessful, but due to massive foreign immigration after the war from many different parts of Europe( Russia, Hungary, Italy, Germany, etc.), everyone needed a common language. Yiddish and other minority Jewish languages were forgotten and Hebrew became the native language of all the new generations of Israelis.
I hope that Egyptians :^^^ can reclaim their native language.
ophadece:
Hi Canis Majoris,
The Greco-Bohairic dialect, pronunciation, lingo or whatever it is called is an artificial one. I never heard of any language, dialect, pronunciation being revived based on an artificial premise, considering the nice examples you gave.. Thank you..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ
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