Sheen

[Andrew N]

Hi everyone:

I admire your expertise in Coptic. The following quotation is from an old post:

كلمة  اسكيم
ⲥⲭⲏⲙⲁ
ينطق فيها حرف الهادة  بنطق الياء وليس الالف  لكن اذا قراتها بالحديث  ستكون  اسشيم   لانها كلمة يونانية الاصل  وينطق حرف الكي ش اذا جاء بعده حرف متحرك للكسر في اللفظ الحديث ولكن في اللفظ القديم هذه القاعدة ليست الزامية

My question is about pronouncing the letter kai in Greek words. The Greek language does not have a sheen sound. This is just like English doesn't have a khah sound and Arabic doesn't have a pee sound.

I'm surprised as to why some Greek words are pronounced with a sheen sound in Coptic churches.

I appreciate your help,

Andrew


 

[ophadece]

Hi Andrew N,
Please note that the post you quoted is questioning the validity of the new Greco-Bohairic sound, hence the /sh/ sound. Words in any language do not follow strict rigid rules as what is conveyed by the new Greco-Bohairic pronunciation. That word ought to be pronounced as /skeima/ in my humble opinion, pretty much like /ewka/ meaning "prayer" as cited by Mr Erian Moftah himself..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ

[Andrew]

> That word ought to be pronounced as /skeima/ in my humble opinion, <

Hi Ophadece:

Thank you for the answer.

I agree. This is probably how Coptic-speaking people pronounced it.

Regardless of the pronunciation of this word, Both GB and OB allow the Sh sound in some Greek words. And, as far as I know, there is no Sh sound in any Greek words. If I'm right then both systems are wrong. I wonder about the source of this error.

BTW, what does your name mean?

Ἀνδρέας

[ophadece]

Hi Andrew
I don't support the argument of right and wrong. The loan words were borrowed from the old Greek language and modified to suit the Egyptian tongue. However this is again my opinion and I don't know what other members think!
My nickname doesn't mean anything, it is just a modified form of Fady sounding pharaonic.. Hehe
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ

[Andrew]

Hi Fady:


You say that Greek words were modified to suit the Egyptian tongue. This is routinely done in any language when one inserts a foreign word in his speech. As you said, they become loan words. Is this the only situation where Kai is pronounced sh in Coptic?

Are there rules for the phonetic choice?

OTOH, when one says whole sentences in a foreign language, he should pronounce the words correctly as in the source language. Is kai ever pronounced as sh in this circumstance?

Thank you for the answer,

Andrew
(Sorry, I don't have a Coptic font).
 

[ophadece]

Hi Andrew
I don't know what your background is so what I will say may not make sense to you. I was born and raised in Egypt and lived there until I was 28 years old. Therefore I am using the critical thinking process that I have learnt in England to apply to my knowledge of the Coptic language and the relationship to the colloquial Egyptian Arabic.
So yes there are other examples although other members may not completely agree. For instance /abarka/ is pronounced /abarshy/ by proponents of the modern Greco-Bohairic pronunciation. I don't know how it is pronounced in Greek. Also /brosewka/ now /brosevshy/.
As for the second point, the language is spoken before a writing system is developed. Therefore to ask for rules governing this or that seems unnecessary to me.
Thirdly, I pronounce the word "fillet" differently according to the language I speak. Even though that is a French word, my pronunciation of "j'ai un fillet" is different to "I have a fish fillet".. I hope you get what I mean, but please let me know if you want me to explain further..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ

[Andrew]

Hi Ophadece:

I figured out how to type in Coptic 

ⲁⲡⲁⲣⲭⲏ: I think should be pronounced aparkhi.

ⲡⲣⲟⲥⲉⲩⲭⲏ: Should probably be pronounced prosevkhi.

It looks like both pronunciation systems distort these words. There is no need to pronounce π as b, χ as sh, or the diphthong ευ as ew. This is unless the speaker cannot pronounce the letters p, k, or v, respectively.

However, in a word like ⲭⲉⲣⲟⲩⲃⲓⲙ, which is of Hebrew origin, I think it's reasonable to pronounce χ as sh and ⲃ like b because this is a semitic word.

BTW, I found out that in the dialect of Crete, ⲕ is occasionally pronounced sh.

Do you know other words where χ is pronounced as sh?

ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲟⲓⲥ

ⲁⲛⲇⲣⲉⲁⲥ

[ophadece]

Hi Andrew
You hit the nail on the head. Egyptians can't pronounce the sounds 'p' and 'v'. That is a reason why the pronunciation of the loan words is mutilated compared to the original Greek.
Mostly all words of Greek origin where the ⲭ is followed by ⲏ, ⲓ, ⲩ, or ⲉ it is pronounced /sh/, again a rule that I find rigid and meaningless to some extent, as in /abarka/ and /awka/. The examples are: ⲭⲉⲣⲉⲧⲓⲥⲙⲟⲥ, ⲁⲣⲭⲏⲉⲣⲉⲩⲥ, ⲓⲥⲭⲩⲣⲟⲥ, ⲯⲩⲭⲏ, ⲭⲏⲣⲁ.
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ

[Andrew]

Hi Ophadece:

Thank you for the examples.

My guess is that Egyptians, who continued to pronounce the aspirated φ, θ, and χ as in Classical Greek, found that χ before some vowels sounded like sh. Apparently, they never made the shift to pronouncing these sounds as in Modern Greek. Does this show that what is called GB is not really that Greek after all?

As far as Egyptians being unable to pronounce p and v, what’s the evidence that this had this handicap before introduction of Arabic?

ⲞⲩϫⲁⲓϧⲉⲛⲠ̀ϭⲥ

Ⲁⲛⲇⲣⲉⲁⲥ

[ophadece]

Hi Andrew
Very good point but I don't know Greek that well, or the difference between the classical Greek and old Greek. However I was told by a Cypriot friend who knows Greek that Greco-Bohairic is very close to the pronunciation of the modern Greek. You tell me if that is your impression too.
The pharaonic (i.e. Egyptian language) did not have a 'v' sound. It had other sounds like ain, kha', ha', etc and a weak form of 'p' that seems to have disappeared altogether or influenced by Arabic! Dr @Bashandy or @admin can shed more light on this..
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ

[Andrew]

Hi Ophadece:

Your Cypriot friend would be a good source to judge. On the surface, there are similarities without a doubt. I found the following article useful. It is a study about Greek pronunciation in the Koine period, which is the transitory period from Classical to Modern Greek. 

https://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/koine-greek-pronunciation/

According to this article, “It appears that the ancient voiced stops β, γ had already gone soft by the first century.” But in GB, γ is never pronounced with a y sound as in Modern Greek. We’ve already noticed that φ, θ, and χ probably were not pronounced as in Modern Greek. The situation with β is interesting because it is not always pronounced with a B sound as in Classical Greek. Even in what is called OB, it is frequently pronounced like w, which seems to be an attempt to pronounce the Modern v.

In Spanish language, s is pronounced like English s. But in Spain, s is pronounced like th. It is said that one Spanish queen couldn’t pronounce s properly, and the rest of the population followed suit. Is this what OB is trying to do?

Regards,

Andrew   
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[ophadece]

Hi Andrew
I am not sure I understand your question. What is Old Bohairic trying to do in terms of pronunciation of the waida?
Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡ̀ϭⲥ

[Canis Majoris]

I don't believe the Coptic spoken during the late Roman Empire had a "sheen sound", as common errors would be prevalent: for example, ρωμαιοc would sometimes be erroneously copied as ρωμεοc, indicating that the ai and e had the same sound. Nowhere do you find mistakes between the sounds of "ϣ" and "χ".

Χερούβ, or Cherub in English may sound like Cherub, but in Ancient Latin and Greek they sounded as "K", as did the Hebrew כְּרוּב, "keruv".

Kemetic Egyptian pronunciations changed after years of Arabic occupation. Keep in mind most of our Coptic litterature is copied from the time of the Roman Empire- nearly 1500 years ago. I doubt an Egyptian speaker from 200 A.d. and another from 1600 A.d. could understand each other.

[Andrew]

Hi Ophadece and Kanis:


Excellent points. So, the question is: Are we trying to recover the 200 AD pronunciation or the 1600 AD pronunciation? Is it possible that this exactly the difference between GB and OB, which seem to be neither Greek nor Old, respectively?


As I recall, most of the evidence for OB comes from transliterating Arabic into Coptic. If this is true, then OB is trying to recover 1600 AD pronunciation and should be called AB.


This brings us back a full circle to the beginning of this thread.


Regards,


Andrew

[Canis Majoris]

The old pronunciation is based on the most recent form of the 1600's spoken Kemetic language- what you call "AB". After Egyptian died as a living language in the 1700's,  the Orthodox church didn't have a uniform pronunciation. In the 1800's, the church decided that Modern Greek is the correct way to pronounce the ancient texts, hoping to create better kinship with the Greek Orthodox Christians. Modern Greek pronunciation is now the preferred pronunciation of the Church. For example, instead of AB(OB) Kame "Χημι", the church pronounces it as GB "Khimi".

Most Arabic Egyptians don't speak Modern Greek nor have studied it. Their pronunciation of Coptic Egyptian is subject to their native Arabic and how they perceive language differences in Modern Greek.

Bohairic Egyptian spelling mistakes indicate a different pronunciation to both AB or GB and share the same mistakes that exist in Ancient Greek of Egypt of the time. Myself, I can read and write hieroglyphs; proper Classical pronunciation becomes more apparent, such as in the Coptic word πε(is) "pe" 𓅯𓄿𓏭. In Ptolemaic/Roman Hieroglyphs it is phonetically "pai" or "pay", and has the same spelling as παι(this) 𓅯𓄿𓏭 and φαι(this man) 𓅯𓄿𓏭.