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Author Topic: P & B in Old Bohairic  (Read 248 times)

04 October , 2009, 09:13:29 AM
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Offline ET

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P & B in Old Bohairic
« on: 04 October , 2009, 09:13:29 AM »
oh btw, I came by fr. Shenooda's website... I have a question about the original pronunciation. it's about the 'pi' letter. He transliterated the letter into a 'b', not a 'p'. I have serious doubts about his idea... maybe I'm wrong about this.

Actually, I belive that 'p' is native to the Egyptian language. After all, it is present in the names of Egyptian kings like Hatshepsut and Imhotep. Maybe that's not the original names as a whole, but we're sure that they had the letter 'p' in the name. I guess that the supression of 'p' comes from the arabic language and is not native to the Egyptian language.

04 October , 2009, 10:52:59 AM
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Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Re: P & B in Old Bohairic
« Reply #1 on: 04 October , 2009, 10:52:59 AM »
I agree ET. I believe that Abouna Shenouda's pronunciation is accurate, but I also think it reflects a Coptic that had already been influenced by Arabic. This is apparent in things like the softening of the 'p' to 'b' and also in the vowels like changing 'e' to 'a' (as in 'apple'). This is from a paper written by an American Phd on that very subject:

"An interesting result in this system is that the Eta and Epsilon are both taken to be pronounced æ, as in English "bat" (indeed, the a-e ligature, æ, was borrowed into the International Pronunciation Alphabet from Old English) -- though the Eta could also be pronounced i (as noted with Sahidic above). Now, æ is not a sound that occurs in every language. It is present in Modern English, Arabic, and Persian, but not, for instance, in French, German, Italian, or Spanish. There is no particuar reason to doubt that æ was the pronunciation of Epsilon and Eta in Coptic at the time of the Greco-Coptic "reform," but there is good reason to wonder if this was the pronunciation before the effect of phonetic bias introduced by the dominance of Arabic. The evidence, indeed, for the pronunciation is from transcriptions of Arabic and from living speakers whose first language, of course, is Arabic."


The full paper can be found here, its an interesting read: http://www.friesian.com/egypt.htm

If we were to one day officially revert to Old Bohairic, I would suggest that we left, Ⲡ and Ⲉ as 'p' and 'e' respectively because of they are likely the result of Arabic influence. That said, Pi is often pronounced as 'b' anyway just because we say it quickly, I don't think it will really matter in the end (neither will Tau as 'd' for the same reason.)

ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ

04 October , 2009, 02:42:34 PM
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Re: P & B in Old Bohairic
« Reply #2 on: 04 October , 2009, 02:42:34 PM »
We need to distinguish between Sahidic And Bohairic Dialect
People in lower Egypt still pronounce the "e" "ae"
for example they say "tala3" instead of "tele3" طلع
That makes me more assured that Ⲉ was pronounced "ae" at least in Bohairic Dialect
I can't give any suggestions about "Ⲡ", no evidences that it was pronounced "P" (I don't know from where did we know the accurate pronunciation of kings names)
as for Ⲧ there is evidences that it was pronounced like Ⲇ, can list it if you want

05 October , 2009, 06:03:29 AM
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Offline ET

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Re: P & B in Old Bohairic
« Reply #3 on: 05 October , 2009, 06:03:29 AM »
I am no expert in old Egyptian language, but I can guess how we know that the names contained the 'p'. My idea is based over how the rosetta stone got decyphered. First of all, we know that the letter 'b' is represented by specific symbol (the foot I guess).

On the other hand, cartouches that contains names of kings that we are sure that their names had a 'p' in  it (Cleopatra for instance, her name is originally Greek meaning father's glory), must have had another symbol to represent the 'p' other than the foot (b). Actually, the whole pronunciation system of the old Egyptian was based over such evidences (I mean by parallelyzing what we know for sure with its Hieroglyohic inscription).

05 October , 2009, 06:19:27 AM
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Offline epchois_nai_nan

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Re: P & B in Old Bohairic
« Reply #4 on: 05 October , 2009, 06:19:27 AM »
But many of the Egyptian names as we pronounce them in English first went through Greek, where they had to have an 's' added on at the end etc. so they are not very accurate. A lot of names as we pronounce them today in English have been modified.

Tut = Thoth (That's who the first Coptic month is named after :))
Haru = Horus (The 's' came from Greek)
Usir = Osiris (Again the 's' is from Greek)

You can find the original Egyptian names of these Pharaohs and deities on Wikipedia, most of them are pretty different to their traditional English names.

05 October , 2009, 07:08:26 AM
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Offline ET

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Re: P & B in Old Bohairic
« Reply #5 on: 05 October , 2009, 07:08:26 AM »
Maybe you're right about it, but IMO, if the hieroglyph that was used to represent the 'p' in cleopatra is
a) different than any representation of 'b'
b) is found in older hieoroglyphs

this would be a decent proof of the existence of the sound in the genuine Egyptian language. Of course we can never know for sure, even any who support the 'pi' to be a 'b' can never be sure about there position.

05 October , 2009, 12:57:33 PM
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Re: P & B in Old Bohairic
« Reply #6 on: 05 October , 2009, 12:57:33 PM »
You are right, Its very likely that Ⲡ was pronounced P
even father shenouda doesn't deny that possibility, he only says "what is the problem if pronouncing that letter b was because of Arabic influences? all language influence each others all of the time"

but for us (Old Pronunciation speakers) Ⲡ is the only letter that represent absolute "B"
the other two letters Ⲃ and Ⲫ have double pronunciation (B/W and B/F)
so assuming I pronounced Ⲡ as "P" and I want to write a person's name with B
I will have to choose between Ⲃ and Ⲫ in all cases I am risking that the name might be misread by the readers
but I think this is a minor issue

05 October , 2009, 01:09:10 PM
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Re: P & B in Old Bohairic
« Reply #7 on: 05 October , 2009, 01:09:10 PM »
T-hut ⲑⲟⲩⲧ in sahidic ⲑ = ⲧϩ so pronunciation in sahidic would be t-hout (t7out)
Hwr his name in Coptic is ϩⲱⲣ and there is a common name ⲡⲁϩⲱⲣ (belongs to hwr)
Osiris, I heard that his real name is Usar (not sure if its correct)
We should make topic about kings/gods real names


 

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