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Author Topic: Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?  (Read 3340 times)

08 July , 2014, 02:08:37 am
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Offline JC_HMONAS

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Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?
« on: 08 July , 2014, 02:08:37 am »
Hello,

I'm a little confused on the names of the dialects, maybe someone could shed some light on this for me.

This is what I think is right...PLEASE, correct me if I'm wrong about something, I want to learn as much as I can:

-Greco Bohairic is what almost every Coptic church uses right now.

-Old Bohairic is what Abouna Shenouda Maher uses, and what is said in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKdHr4YtMzU. (right?)

-Sahidic as I understand, is another dialect of Coptic, but isn't it also a misnomer for Old Bohairic? Does it sound different from Old Bohairic? Where can I find any recording of Sahidic pronunciation?


Any help is appreciated! Thank you!

08 July , 2014, 02:28:56 am
Reply #1

Offline ophadece

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Re: Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?
« Reply #1 on: 08 July , 2014, 02:28:56 am »
Hi JC_HMONAS,
Welcome to kame forum. Greco-Bohairic is the accent manufactured wrongly in the church in the 19th century.
Old Bohairic is a misnomer, because it is in fact the right dialect that as you rightly said is spoken by Fr. Shenouda. There's also a Sa'idic dialect which is not very far from the authentic Bohairic but proponents of the Greco Bohairic claim that it's very different basing their opinion on the fact that they refuse to acknowledge that the proper dialect is different. I hope I haven't complicated things
oujai
ari`hmot `slyl e;byten anon pi`cnau

08 July , 2014, 02:40:22 am
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Offline JC_HMONAS

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Re: Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?
« Reply #2 on: 08 July , 2014, 02:40:22 am »
Hello ophadece (from tasbeha.org?),

Thank you and thank you for your response, I'm very happy I found this forum.

So who uses the Sahidic dialect now? Anyone?

I've read that people refered to Old Bohairic as Sahidic, which was a misnomer spread by Arian Moftah's students. And when people refer to "Sahidic" now they really mean Old Bohairic not the actualy Sahidic dialect. I think that's where my confusion was. Any truth to this?

10 July , 2014, 12:41:39 pm
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Offline ophadece

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Re: Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?
« Reply #3 on: 10 July , 2014, 12:41:39 pm »
Hi JC_HMONAS,
Yes I also log on to tasbeha.org like you. You are right about misnaming the two dialects and I am not 100% sure where each dialect is spoken, but I guess Sa'idic is mainly spoken in upper Egypt although on a small scale, and many books and research material has used it more than Bohairic.. hope your confusion ends here..
Oujai
ari`hmot `slyl e;byten anon pi`cnau

17 July , 2014, 10:58:14 am
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Offline Admin

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Re: Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?
« Reply #4 on: 17 July , 2014, 10:58:14 am »
In the past,
South Egypt up to Cairo used Sahidic for prayer while northern cities used Bohairic.
at some point in history Orthodox Patriarchies were selected almost exclusively from one Monastery that pray in Bohairic.
with  many consecutive patriarchies all praying in Bohairic and with the language in general getting weaker. Bohairic started to dominate and be used in prayer everywhere.

at the moment Sahidic is not used by any one at all!

 

17 November , 2015, 03:11:27 pm
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Offline Anaksunamun

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Re: Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?
« Reply #5 on: 17 November , 2015, 03:11:27 pm »
In the past,
South Egypt up to Cairo used Sahidic for prayer while northern cities used Bohairic.
at some point in history Orthodox Patriarchies were selected almost exclusively from one Monastery that pray in Bohairic.
with  many consecutive patriarchies all praying in Bohairic and with the language in general getting weaker. Bohairic started to dominate and be used in prayer everywhere.

at the moment Sahidic is not used by any one at all!

 

That is definitely interesting to know how no churches utilize Sahidic...

Truthfully speaking it's not that much different than Bohairic except for a consonant difference or two, and if you follow the old Bohairic pronunciation the vowels aren't that much different, and obviously some differences in words...  I think I read somewhere that Sahidic is closer to the original spellings of words than Bohairic.

30 November , 2015, 08:09:54 am
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Re: Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?
« Reply #6 on: 30 November , 2015, 08:09:54 am »
I think difference is far beyond one constance or two.
I did learn Bohairic in old pronunciation a I did study Sahidic after and although there is a lot of similarities in words / grammar there is also enough differences that I needed to spend couple of week studying Sahidic and still I am not good at it.

Egyptian dialects did exist long before the appearance of Coptic writing only with Coptic writing differences started to appear (mainly because of writing vowels and also because Greek alphabet had quiet standard pronunciation so each dialect had to use difference letters for same word (instead of using same letters but pronounce is differently )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_language#Dialects
« Last Edit: 30 November , 2015, 08:15:16 am by Admin »

01 October , 2017, 03:06:33 pm
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Offline bashandy

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Re: Old Bohairic vs Sahidic, What's the difference?
« Reply #7 on: 01 October , 2017, 03:06:33 pm »
Sahidic is one of the oldest dialects of Coptic language. There is a wealth of manuscripts written in Sahidic Coptic, including the Nag Hammadi manuscripts, Bible, Apocrypha, Gnostic text, the writings, of St Pachomios & St Shenouda Archmandrite, older liturgies were written in Sahidic. A few traces of Sahidic Coptic can be found in current prayers.

It is said by Prof Christian Askeland in one of his lectures on Coptic manuscripts.. That Sahidic was more or less the official dialect, it relies heeavily on consononants with supralinear strokes to denote vowels. In this it has some degree of resemblance to Demotic Scripts where consonants were the ones basically written. Its usage extended through upper Egypt, with local dialects as Fayyumic in Fayoum, Lycopolitan in Assiut & Sohag, Achmimmic & SubAchmmimic in Akhmim & neigbouring areas.

Bohairic was the dialect used in Delta. By the 10th Century the Coptic Orthodox Popes came from Natire Valley, Shihat ϣⲓϩⲏⲧ The manuscripts were written in Bohairic, which eventually became the official dialect of the Church. Monastries were active in translation, and translated a lot of text to Bohairic.

In 1857-1860 Arian G. Moftah, proposed a change of pronunciation of Bohairic Coptic to match Modern Greek letters' pronunciation. This was adopted by the Church. In the late 1960s & 1970's Dr Emile Maher Ishak studied phonetics and came to conclude that that the Old Bohairic pronunciation is authentic.

Sahidic is different from Bohairic in usage of vowels, consonants, & terminology, even grammar is different to some extent. If you're interested in manuscripts, I'd say go for Sahidic. If you're interested in praying in Church then, Bohairic is the way to go. I'd learn Old Bohairic for its authenticity & aesthetics.