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Author Topic: Revelation 19:1.  (Read 2405 times)

10 September , 2011, 10:21:08 am
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Offline Dupin

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Revelation 19:1.
« on: 10 September , 2011, 10:21:08 am »
In another forum I'm on, one for believers of a sort similar to me a question came up which involved Rev. 19:1.

In Greek it reads:

Quote
Μετὰ ταῦτα ἤκουσα ὡς φωνὴν μεγάλην ὄχλου πολλοῦ ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ λεγόντων· Ἀλληλούϊα· ἡ σωτηρία καὶ ἡ δόξα καὶ ἡ δύναμις τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν,

In Bohairic Coptic it reads:

Quote
ⲘⲈⲚⲈⲚⲤⲀ ⲚⲀⲒ ⲀⲒⲤⲰⲦⲈⲘ ⲘⲪⲢⲎϮ ⲚⲞⲨⲚⲒϢϮ ⲚϦⲢⲰⲞⲨ ⲚⲦⲈⲞⲨⲘⲎϢ ⲈϤⲞϢ ϦⲈⲚⲦⲪⲈ ⲈⲨϪⲰ ⲘⲘⲞⲤ ϪⲈ ⲀⲖⲖⲎⲖⲞⲨⲒⲀ ⲠⲒⲞⲨϪⲀⲒ ⲚⲈⲘ ⲠⲒⲰⲞⲨ ⲚⲈⲘ ⲠⲒⲦⲀⲒⲞ ⲚⲈⲘ ϮϪⲞⲘ ⲚⲀ ⲠⲈⲚⲚⲞⲨϮ ⲚⲈϪⲈ ⲚⲈϤϨⲀⲠ ϨⲀⲚⲘⲈⲐⲘⲎⲒ ⲚⲈ.

I pulled both from Marcion and hope they show up on the forum alright.  Now, The problem is the word ὡς.  In this context it could mean as, as if or as it were.  The word appears in the majority of Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine family manuscripts.  However, it is missing from a significant group of manuscripts, enough that Erasmus didn't include it in his master text which formed the base for the Textus Receptus.

As the resident linguist, as it were, on that forum I check things as thoroughly as I can before I post on such subjects.  We used to have a Phd. candidate on there to keep me challenged, so I'm pretty certain of things on the Greek end.  However, my Coptic isn't up to the challenge yet.  Well's Greek text, a theoretical construct of the Greek text on which the Coptic was based, includes ὡς.  I would like to know how he gets that out of the Coptic.  I'm not there yet with my Coptic understanding.

By the way, I believe the only stupid question is the one not asked.   :)

Dupin
« Last Edit: 10 September , 2011, 10:23:56 am by Dupin »

10 September , 2011, 10:44:25 am
Reply #1

Offline Admin

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Re: Revelation 19:1.
« Reply #1 on: 10 September , 2011, 10:44:25 am »
ⲀⲒ-ⲤⲰⲦⲈⲘ ⲘⲪⲢⲎϮ ⲚⲞⲨ-ⲚⲒϢϮ ⲚϦⲢⲰⲞⲨ ⲚⲦⲈ ⲞⲨⲘⲎϢ ⲈϤⲞϢ
I heard like a great voice of a big crowd (a lot of people)
Does this answer your question?
and u r right, if beginners won't ask questions cause they think its silly our forum would become useless

10 September , 2011, 09:05:38 pm
Reply #2

Offline Dupin

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Re: Revelation 19:1.
« Reply #2 on: 10 September , 2011, 09:05:38 pm »
Thanks for the answer Admin.

I think that was what I needed.  I downloaded your pronunciation mp3 files.  However, the lessons you linked aren't available from the links.  It appears to me that you've put some Arabic in there, so I'm having a little problem being sure what's what given the pronunciation you advocate is a bit Arabatized.  If I might make a suggestion.  Randall Bluth, one of the advocates for getting away from the Erasmian pronunciation for ancient Greek in favor of a system suggested by comparisons among ancient Greek manuscripts, etc, recorded several mid length biblical passages in the system he advocates.  They included John 1:1-18, always a favorite, 1Jon 1, and John 20, the resurrection of Jesus,

If clearly enunciated in a natural way there are plenty of folks like me out there who can get what we need from that.  His mp3 files are here if you would like an example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.biblicallanguagecenter.com/greek-mp3-samples/

If you already have something of that sort, then I would appreciate copies if I may.

Dupin

11 September , 2011, 11:06:13 pm
Reply #3

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Re: Revelation 19:1.
« Reply #3 on: 11 September , 2011, 11:06:13 pm »
Egyptians haven't pronounced Greek  like Greek people, like indians wouldn't pronounce English like English people
there is no sound records, but there is some phonetic transcriptions like this
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/286/dsc014457sf.jpg/

12 September , 2011, 02:28:22 am
Reply #4

Offline Dupin

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Re: Revelation 19:1.
« Reply #4 on: 12 September , 2011, 02:28:22 am »
Ah, friend,

The files I linked to were meant to serve as an example of what I was talking about.  If you listened to one you don't need to know Greek to note that the narrator spoke clearly, not all that fast, and put feeling into the text.  He's a good reader.  I didn't assume you knew ancient Greek.  In fact, My assumption was otherwise given a few things I've noted.  I was just trying to give you an example of what I was trying to find for the older Bohairic pronunciation.

There is a lot of things I would get from something like that as opposed to the files already here.  I would not only get the correct pronunciation, including the variations for letter with multiple phonemic values in their correct contexts.  I would also get the proper feel for intonation within not only the sentence, but also for the emotions given the right selection of texts.  In other words the kinds of things pronouncing a list of words in isolation doesn't transmit.

Normally, when I'm working on a language I try to get something, the Bible if I can but a novel will do, in the way of an extensive recording I can listen to in order to immerse myself in the target language.  If such isn't available, and I would be surprised to find it for Coptic given the small number of folks who "speak" it in any form other than liturgical recitation, then I try to find something like the files  I linked.  I learned Erasmian pronunciation for Greek and I'm in the process of learning both modern Greek pronunciation and the reconstructed system.  That's how I came across those files.

My ultimate goal, for which I'm grateful for the help you are giving me even now, is to eventually be an amateur scholar of all the earliest languages the New Testament was translated into and to get my hands on the earliest texts of said languages one who isn't wealthy at all can get on the cheap.  I've been a student of ancient Greek since the early 1990s and Latin well before that, Hebrew starting in the last decade, and have gathered the material to study both Bohairic and Sahidic Coptic, Syriac, and Gothic.  At the moment I'm concentrating more on Coptic than Syriac or Gothic.   In fact, I've put off the other two to lay the proper foundation in Coptic.

All that is because of a vow I made to myself many years ago.  The resources have only just become available to me to keep faith with the vow.  Well, enough long-windiness for now.

Dupin

12 September , 2011, 02:31:52 am
Reply #5

Offline Dupin

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Re: Revelation 19:1.
« Reply #5 on: 12 September , 2011, 02:31:52 am »
Oh, i forgot,

When I went to the link you provided I was redirected to a site which tried to sell me a cell phone when I tried to zoom in on the transcription.   ::)  I just can't win sometimes.

Dupin